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Old 10-15-2012, 04:47 AM   #21
fenderbassist12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdc
In a diatonic scale you can only use a letter once.


...ok sorry I didn't know that rule but you still know what I meant.
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
...ok sorry I didn't know that rule but you still know what I meant.

Quote:
When I'm playing in G locrian I just use G as the root note and play other notes consisting of G#, Bb, C, C#, F, and G. Usually I would focus my bassline on the tension between the C and the C#, as that is what is unique to G locrian.

If it contained those notes, and the Eb which you added, then the formula would be R #1 b3 4 #4 b6 b7 R

Which just isn't correct.
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:44 AM   #23
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Whiplash, you're jumping way too far ahead of where you're ready too be. It's like trying to learn calculus before you learn algebra.

Just start with major and minor scales (Understanding the intervals they have, NOT just fretboard patterns), and chord construction using musictheory.net. Forget you were ever interested in modes.

EDIT: To add to the discussion that is already happening...
Modes cannot be keys, even if Steve Vai says so. Major and Minor are the only keys. The key really only tells you what triad the piece resolves to. Even if your song manages to be in say, E Phrygian, the key is still E minor.

Last edited by Macabre_Turtle : 10-15-2012 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:02 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
Can you explain why E dorian is not a key? I see E dorian as a scale with a 2, flat 3, 4, 5, 6, flat 7. Its just variation to the minor scale along with melodic and harmonic minor.


Can you show me some sheet music that is clearly labeled as being in the key of E Dorian? And you seem to have caught the idea that AeolianWolf is trying to point out to you. Dorian is just a variation of the natural minor scale, like the melodic and harmonic minors, but their use does not change the key of the piece from E minor so why should Dorian?

To TS,
What you will accomplish by learning things in this manner is an empty understanding of how music is created. It will probably make you into a fast, but less than steller lead guitarist, and an even worse musician. Take Hotspur's advice and learn theory the proper way if that is your goal. If you wish to continue in your current path then at least learn songs by ear so that you will gain an ear for music rather than aimlessly plowing up and down scales and appegios like there's no tomorrow. The world has enough bland shredders for my taste.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:06 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
...ok sorry I didn't know that rule but you still know what I meant.


It's a really basic rule, and the fact that you didn't know it is telling.

Beceause you're making all sorts of other ore sophisticated mistakes.

TO the OP:

The reason why you don't have to memorize the "7 modes" as fretboard positions is that they're all the same. If you learn the major and minor scales, you will know the modes by the time you get to a point where it makes any sense at all to use them.

But the simple truth is that they're really not very important at all.

Compared to stuff like chord construction and chord function, they're basically useless. 99% of the music you listen to doesn't use the modes.

But the biggest problem with modes-as-shapes-on-the-fretboard is that it facilitates a misunderstanding of how you solo and compose. You see, people who learn with this approach invariably make a mistake: they think of a scale as a series of interchangeable "safe notes" and they think that they way to change the sound of your solo is to change scales.

In other words, they substitute knowledge of fretboard patterns for knowledge of how to actually use a scale. And the result is very uninteresting, cookie-cutter-ish music.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:04 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
E minor just indicates there is a flat 3. That scale you showed is in E Aeolian. I don't know what you are trying to say about modes just being positions on a fretboard because they are not, the positions just help you play the modes.

When I'm playing in G locrian I just use G as the root note and play other notes consisting of G#, Bb, C, C#, F, and G. Usually I would focus my bassline on the tension between the C and the C#, as that is what is unique to G locrian.

Can you explain why E dorian is not a key? I see E dorian as a scale with a 2, flat 3, 4, 5, 6, flat 7. Its just variation to the minor scale along with melodic and harmonic minor.


scale =/= key. just because something is a scale doesn't mean it has its own key. there is no dorian key, there is no locrian key (god forbid), there is no phrygian dominant key, there is no lydian b7 key. there are only two keys, major and minor. no matter what, that will never change. if you play an E dorian scale, you are playing in E minor (other possibilities exist, depending on what you tonicize, but let's assume you tonicize E) using a C# as an accidental. i don't care how you phrase it, orchestrate it, treat it, whatever. you're playing in E minor.

people often say there are three ways to play: tonally, modally, and atonally. in fact there are only two: tonally (having a tonal center) and atonally (not having a tonal center). anything that can be expressed modally can be expressed tonally (although the reverse is not true). this is part of why i say the modal system is obsolete. unless you're talking about renaissance music, where things were done very differently than they are today, modes do not come into play at all.

there are a lot of good posts on the second page of this thread, which i hadn't checked before writing any of this until this paragraph . the edit that macabre_turtle placed in his post is a pretty succinct explanation of the type of thinking i utilize.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf

there are a lot of good posts on the second page of this thread, which i hadn't checked before writing any of this until this paragraph . the edit that macabre_turtle placed in his post is a pretty succinct explanation of the type of thinking i utilize.


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Old 10-15-2012, 02:45 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdc
If it contained those notes, and the Eb which you added, then the formula would be R #1 b3 4 #4 b6 b7 R

Which just isn't correct.



Well thats one way to say it, but I look at it like R b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, which is correct, so everything is flat except the 4, which is why locrian is 'devils music.'



And OK I understand sheet music isn't written in modes, only in minor and major. I'm not really talking about sheet music. The way I approach is my band sits down to jam. I say I'm going to play in E phrygian. So then the guitarist knows when he is playing lead to play notes such as the flat 2 and the flat 6 which are intervals important in the phrygian scale.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
It's a really basic rule, and the fact that you didn't know it is telling.

Beceause you're making all sorts of other ore sophisticated mistakes.

TO the OP:

The reason why you don't have to memorize the "7 modes" as fretboard positions is that they're all the same. If you learn the major and minor scales, you will know the modes by the time you get to a point where it makes any sense at all to use them.

But the simple truth is that they're really not very important at all.

Compared to stuff like chord construction and chord function, they're basically useless. 99% of the music you listen to doesn't use the modes.

But the biggest problem with modes-as-shapes-on-the-fretboard is that it facilitates a misunderstanding of how you solo and compose. You see, people who learn with this approach invariably make a mistake: they think of a scale as a series of interchangeable "safe notes" and they think that they way to change the sound of your solo is to change scales.

In other words, they substitute knowledge of fretboard patterns for knowledge of how to actually use a scale. And the result is very uninteresting, cookie-cutter-ish music.


I'm going to have to disagree with you. Its easy to make that cookie-cutter-ish music when you are just learning the patterns, but I have heard some of the best lead melodies executed very nicely from this style of learning after years of experience.

And you say it is pointless because 99% of music doesn't use the modes. Is that a reason to not learn? This was one of the reasons why I like using modes so much because you can produce sounds that are very interesting and exotic, which you may have not heard before. I guess I'm from the POV of making my own music rather than playing what is written out for me.

Also chord construction and chord formation are essentially part of the modes. So I'm not sure why everyone is telling TS to disregard what he is trying to learn. I say keep at it, and you will make some of the best music you have never heard before.
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Last edited by fenderbassist12 : 10-15-2012 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:48 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
Well thats one way to say it, but I look at it like R b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, so everything is flat except the 4, which is why locrian is 'devils music.'



And OK I understand sheet music isn't written in modes, only in minor and major. I'm not really talking about sheet music. The way I approach is my band sits down to jam. I say I'm going to play in E phrygian. So then the guitarist knows when he is playing lead to play notes such as the flat 2 and the flat 6 which are intervals important in the phrygian scale.

... and what is this E Phrygian chord progression?
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:51 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
i highly doubt you're ever playing in G locrian - unless you want to tell me you're playing pieces that tonicize half-diminished seventh chords, of course.


Yeah, and that *aren't* functioning as rootless Dominants!

AW, from a purely "bromantic" point of view... I love you man... That made my day!

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Old 10-15-2012, 02:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by mdc
... and what is this E Phrygian chord progression?


Hmm well there are tons of options.

One would be something like

[2 measures of Em7, 1 measure of Cmaj7, half a measure of Dm7, half a measure of Fmaj7] then repeat


You just basically have 7 chords to play from in E phrygian.

Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, B half diminished, Cmaj7, Dm7

and then just create whatever progressions you want with those, focusing E as the root note.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:17 PM   #32
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dang this thread blew up since I last looked, anyways I see a number of responses saying to forget these positions but my question is this..

If I am playing a major scale such as F or C or G or whatever it may be don't the positions that I mapped out in the original post stay the same? By that I mean the Ionian pattern or Dorian pattern for example is the same regardless of which scale i am in it just changes the location on the fretboard due to the root note changing for the specified scale I am playing in? And by memorizing these positions doesnt that help memorize intervals because its just showing how to fret the intervals for each position?
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:20 PM   #33
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^ Yes. sing it as you play it. Then play it in diatonic 3rds... sing that.

Then 4ths, sing that.

It gets harder as the intervals get larger.

... as does the fingering. 5ths, 6ths, 7ths.

Last edited by mdc : 10-15-2012 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
I'm going to have to disagree with you. Its easy to make that cookie-cutter-ish music when you are just learning the patterns, but I have heard some of the best lead melodies executed very nicely from this style of learning after years of experience.


Fine. THen learn how to use the modes after you have years of experience. Not as a first step towards learning theory, the way the original poster is approaching the.

Quote:
And you say it is pointless because 99% of music doesn't use the modes. Is that a reason to not learn? This was one of the reasons why I like using modes so much because you can produce sounds that are very interesting and exotic, which you may have not heard before.


Except that you're not, really. These aren't "new" sounds - they're sounds that we're all familiar with.

THe issue is that most of the time it makes more sense to think of them as a series of accidentals on the major scale than as some other scale. In other words, if you can't conceive of a statement like "F, but the 4ths are sharp" and apply it just based on that knowledge, then throwing words like "Lydian" around is more confusing than enlightening.

Quote:
I guess I'm from the POV of making my own music rather than playing what is written out for me.


I haven't suggested a damn thing about writing down music one way or the other. And from the standpoint of making music, I'll take the music from the guy who doesn't know the modes at all, but knows how to use the major and minor scale, EVERY DAY, over the guy who uses modes but doesn't functionally understand them.

Quote:
Also chord construction and chord formation are essentially part of the modes. So I'm not sure why everyone is telling TS to disregard what he is trying to learn.


No, chord construction is not "part of modes." That's just complete nonsense. You can learn all about chord construction without ever using the word "mode," or talking about any concept that implies modes.

Quote:
I say keep at it, and you will make some of the best music you have never heard before.


Give that he knows almost no theory, I think it makes a lot more sense for him to learn the fundamentals, first. And that ain't modes.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Macabre_Turtle
Whiplash, you're jumping way too far ahead of where you're ready too be. It's like trying to learn calculus before you learn algebra.

Just start with major and minor scales (Understanding the intervals they have, NOT just fretboard patterns), and chord construction using musictheory.net. Forget you were ever interested in modes.

EDIT: To add to the discussion that is already happening...
Modes cannot be keys, even if Steve Vai says so. Major and Minor are the only keys. The key really only tells you what triad the piece resolves to. Even if your song manages to be in say, E Phrygian, the key is still E minor.


yeah learning scales was basically how this all started but the person who taught me these patterns said that he is not a really schooled musician and he uses patterns more when he is writing solos and things for songs.

This might be a stupid question but arent these shapes going to map out the intervals? What I mean is if I am playing the F major scale the intervals are WWHWWWH correct? And the diagram that I drew in the original post are just showing these as a pattern instead of actually figuring out which notes to play?
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:33 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by mdc
^ Yes. sing it as you play it. Then play it in diatonic 3rds... sing that.

Then 4ths, sing that.

It gets harder as the intervals get larger.

... as does the fingering. 5ths, 6ths, 7ths.


I think I am ******ed because I dont understand this
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:37 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by whiplash_87
dang this thread blew up since I last looked, anyways I see a number of responses saying to forget these positions but my question is this..

If I am playing a major scale such as F or C or G or whatever it may be don't the positions that I mapped out in the original post stay the same?


It's hard for me to understand what you're asking here. I think the answer is yes: the C major scale has the same pattern as the G major scale, it's just moved up the neck 7 frets.

Quote:
And by memorizing these positions doesnt that help memorize intervals because its just showing how to fret the intervals for each position?


I'm not quite sure what you mean by memorizing intervals. Memorizing intervals is a lot easier than memorizing a bunch of patterns on the fretboard - so why would you memorize the hard thing to help you learn the easy thing rather than vice versa?

If you want to learn the fretboard (and it's a good idea) I strongly recommend the CAGED system. This breaks the neck down into five "patterns" which interlock. "The Guitar Fretboard Workbook" is a good introduction to it. ANd yes, it mentions modes - but you learn modes almost incidentally, as a different way of approaching the patterns you already have learned.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:38 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by whiplash_87
I think I am ******ed because I dont understand this

******ed? ****, that's not good
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:45 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
False. Every mode system (for example Greek Modes) use the same patterns. The patterns you play are relative to what key you want to play in. Memorizing the patterns of the modes can let you play in any mode as long as you know how to lock into the patterns of that key. I use the same patterns when I'm playing in E Dorian as I am when I am playing in G Locrian. They may not be the same place on the fretboard, but they are the same patterns and they just move depending on what key you want to play in.


The fact that you refer to modes and keys in the same sentence shows that you really have no clue what you're talking about.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by HotspurJr
It's hard for me to understand what you're asking here. I think the answer is yes: the C major scale has the same pattern as the G major scale, it's just moved up the neck 7 frets.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by memorizing intervals. Memorizing intervals is a lot easier than memorizing a bunch of patterns on the fretboard - so why would you memorize the hard thing to help you learn the easy thing rather than vice versa?


If you want to learn the fretboard (and it's a good idea) I strongly recommend the CAGED system. This breaks the neck down into five "patterns" which interlock. "The Guitar Fretboard Workbook" is a good introduction to it. ANd yes, it mentions modes - but you learn modes almost incidentally, as a different way of approaching the patterns you already have learned.


Sorry for the confusion, I mentioned those scales as examples, but my question was if I am playing any major scale the patterns that I drew out will stay the same they just move with the root note correct?

basically I was shown these patterns and told they are the same for all major scales, so i have basically been practicing memorizing them. Basically though these patterns are just showing the intervals right?

This whole thing started with me trying to learn the fretboard, and these patterns were kind of the first thing I was told to memorize. Obviously I am not getting too far and its quite frustrating so I am trying to figure out where to go from here.

Last edited by whiplash_87 : 10-15-2012 at 07:58 PM.
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