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Old 10-18-2012, 10:49 AM   #1
the singer 22
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Bass cab questions

How does the amount of speakers in your bass cab change your sound
And tone? For example 810 v 610 v 410

Last edited by the singer 22 : 10-18-2012 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:07 AM   #2
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8 vs. 6 vs. 4 - is Mass Quantity

8 vs. 6 vs. 4 - there is Resistance differenetiation, wired up differently, going from 8 to 4- Ohms goes down and thus greater Power Loads can be delivered from the Power Amp. Wattage usunally equals Louder.

So as one goes from 4 to 8, one should expect not merely a Louder sound, but having more watts available an inclrease in lower frequencies.

One will also notice the physical display of this thing called SPL. Sound Pressue Level - that thing that made Ampeg do the Ad of the Skynard Long hair standing in front of an SVT parting his hair at 20ft.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:16 AM   #3
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@sliide90027 what about speaker size? Like 10 v 15?
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:37 AM   #4
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Speaker size does not impart a particular sound to a speaker.

If you like the sound of a speaker cabinet, buy it and have fun.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:42 AM   #5
the singer 22
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Also my ampeg v4 doesn't have a di. And most venues don't mic basses where we play. Should
I start using an ABY pedal?
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the singer 22
Also my ampeg v4 doesn't have a di. And most venues don't mic basses where we play. Should
I start using an ABY pedal?


Get a direct box haha
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutter_101
Speaker size does not impart a particular sound to a speaker.

If you like the sound of a speaker cabinet, buy it and have fun.



LOL!

Precisely, that is why Neither John Entwistle nor Geddy Lee ever Bi-amped their systems where the lows went to the larger speakers and Highs went to the Smaller Speakers as there is no possible way that the size of a speaker dictates which frequencies it will better reproduce.

I believe that this sarcastically answers the question about the 10" v. 15"

10" will not reproduce low fequency tones as efficiently nor as low as the 15.
15" will not reproduce MidRange Frequecy tones as efficiently nor as High as the 10"

In Sound re-enforcement applications, the 10" is a Mid and upper Mid Range Driver. the 12" is a Mid to LowMid, 15" is a Low, and 18" Well that is ito sub sonics.

That should explain the answer to the question.

For Bass Applications, in my ear estimation, it will take about 6 10"s to do the Lows that 2 15's will do. Interesting is that the 15" cannot be subdivided to do the work of 10"s. (a-la go look at the Phil Jones ahd Bose who use arrays of 5" drivers.)

The 10 brings so much of the Mids to the Work that you can see where the 15" Ruled the 70's, and 80's, the 10" based upon the SVT Experiece took over and the tones of Basses have had more Mids ever since. Works better in Keyboard Bands.

While the 10" is not for me in my present Small Rig Application, it well could be in a Bi-Amped situation with Horm Loaded 18" to handle the lows, but yet with the Hartke 8x10 and 1x15 Hydrives going down to 25 and 20 hz respectively, what is the point? (ego)

I am just a 2x12 guy. That is my Rig. 2 GB NeoX 112T Cabs.

It works for me, and people rush the stage, so it will do for now.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:07 PM   #8
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^The best bass I've ever heard came from 5" drivers. And I think you miss Chris' point, and you've actually been damn rude about it. Chris is right in that speaker size does not dictate what sound it will produce. There is so much more- internal cables used, size of voice coil, size of magnet, cabinet design, magnet type, cone geometry, cone material, proximity to a wall, room size, amplification used...

I work in hifi. I deal with speakers every day and the concept is the same. I have multiple speakers with 1" HF, 6.5" MF/LF drivers, and you can tell them all apart blind.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:24 PM   #9
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LOL!

Precisely, that is why Neither John Entwistle nor Geddy Lee ever Bi-amped their systems where the lows went to the larger speakers and Highs went to the Smaller Speakers as there is no possible way that the size of a speaker dictates which frequencies it will better reproduce.


Right, and there aren't a hundred other things that could explain why they liked the sound of it? Such as phase cancellation (some people like the sound of that) or just the fact the speakers were each handling a narrower ranger of frequencies and therefore performed differently? Perhaps they'd prefer the sound even more if they tried sending the higher frequencies to the larger speakers and the lower ones to the smaller ones? Furthermore both of those artists you cited swapped gear regularly, just because they did something at one point doesn't make them "right" (and yet Geddy Lee has always sounded like Geddy Lee... tone is in the hands, right?) Hell, Geddy Lee has been through more gear than I suspect even he can hope to remember.

There are plenty of other factors that in my experience have a far greater impact upon the way a cab sounds than the speakers dimensions. For example, let's say we have the following cabs:

Cab A - closed back birch-ply cabinet loaded with an Eminence 15" neodynium driver
Cab B - closed back birch-ply cabinet loaded with 2x Eminence 10" neodynium driver
Cab C - open back MDF cabinet loaded with an EV 15" paper driver

I'd expect Cab A and Cab B to sound very similar to eachother. Sure, there's going to be a bit of a difference, but I doubt it'd be huge. However, Cab A and Cab C are going to sound miles apart, despite both being 15" cabinets. Cab B and Cab C are also going to sound extremely different from one another, but there are plenty of people out there who would hear that difference and attribute it to the difference in the size of the speakers despite so many factors differing so greatly.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:40 PM   #10
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The guy asked me a question, and it remained in limited parameters of size.

For him it will probably remain there until he gains enough expereience with the elements he sees to then get into the minutia that others have written of in defense of the idea that High Frequency Drivers might be appreciated more by Entwistle and Lee for running Low Frequency than say a 15".

Such is merely looking for argument and insult where it is pointless.

Entwistle did not change his gear too much in general configuration, while Lee does not even run cabinets last I read.

In defense of myself, the Myers Company who makes the State of the Art Speakers for performace continues to Run Frequencies through Drivers much in the way I wrote of here. So with that I rest my defense.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:45 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the singer 22
How does the amount of speakers in your bass cab change your sound
And tone? For example 810 v 610 v 410


Adding speakers together has two effects, both due to the different distances the sound has to travel from different bits of speaker cone to your ears. There is a small time delay in when the sound arrives from one side of the cone and the opposite side, especially if you are standing to one side of the speaker. At low frequencies this doesn't matter but at high frequencies the sound wave that arrives from the nearest part of the speaker may be from the cone moving forwards and by the time the sound arrives from the other side the cone will be moving back. This is called phase and the out of phase sounds will cancel and the high frequencies will be cut. This happens from the point where the wavelength of the sound is less than the diameter of the speaker. If you use lots of speakers then it is the distance apart of the outside of all the cones, so a 2x10 acts like a 20" speaker in this respect.

So, the first effect of adding more speakers is to cut the treble (high notes) which gives the dark bassy 'sound' of an 8x10 which is effectively a 20x40" speaker.

The second effect is the shape of the sound. Because the effect is greater off axis (sideways) and the speakers always reinforce each other straight on a 4x10 will radiate a narrow cone of sound, an 8x10 a broader flatter fan of sound and two 2x10's placed on top of each other with the speakers in line will create the broadest flat fan of sound, which is ideal as the sound is directed at the audience.

A third effect is that the efficiency of converting the speakers energy into sound is proportional to the area of the cone so doubling the no of cones gives an extra 3dB of sound, equivalent to doubling the amplifier power. As you can also double the amplifier power with the extra cones can give you a maximum increase of 6dB. An 8x10 will be 18dB louder than a single 10 using the same speakers and driving them to their full. this is equivalent to the difference between a loud hi-fi and sitting in the front row at a rock concert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the singer 22
@sliide90027 what about speaker size? Like 10 v 15?


Increasing cone area increases the efficiency of a speaker all other things being equal and the 'beaming' effect above also holds true for large cones. 15's are likely to be louder and to have less treble than 10's

The mass of a big cone is going to be greater for the same thickness. This means you don't get the full efficiency increase and the increased mass will lower the resonant frequency of the speaker and hence the lowest note it will reproduce. 15's will tend to have more bass.


You'll have noticed I've used the scientists language of 'tends,probably and likely'. there are loads of things a speaker maker can do to get round all this. If you make a 15 with a thinner flexible cone it will give more treble by bending so only the middle moves at the high frequencies. You can add mass to a 10 by making the cone thicker and this will lower the resonance, increase the bass and decrease the treble. putting a bigger magnet on a speaker will increase it's efficiency. Size is important but it is only one thing. Just as it isn't true to say all big people are strong and all little people are weak, or to say all small cars accelerate quicker than big ones it isn't true to say a 15 will always be bassier and louder than a 10.

As to sound, well all we have really been talking about is deep bass and the ratio of top end to bottom. Most of the 'sound' of a speaker is about the peaks and troughs of frequency due to the cab as well as the speaker itself and all the interactions between them, in the end you just have to listen and if it sounds good to you then it is good.

I've written three or four articles on this for UG try this one perhaps, if you are interested http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/colu...or_guitars.html also http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm for Alex claber's articles for Bass Guitar Magazine
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Old 10-19-2012, 06:38 AM   #12
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IME there is a tendency for crappy 15"s to have a muddy low end, and crappy 10"s to be a little bass lacking. That said, if you're buying cabs that suffer these problems you probably shouldn't be looking at Head/Cab setups because you'll be getting better quality in a similarly priced Combo.

To put it simply though, in a quality cabinet speaker size should have minimal impact on the sound

As for the amount of speakers, I don't see why it should affect the tone particularly much. Although I tend to find more speakers seems to translate to more low end in the cabs I've tried.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterbox272
IME there is a tendency for crappy 15"s to have a muddy low end, and crappy 10"s to be a little bass lacking. That said, if you're buying cabs that suffer these problems you probably shouldn't be looking at Head/Cab setups because you'll be getting better quality in a similarly priced Combo.

To put it simply though, in a quality cabinet speaker size should have minimal impact on the sound

As for the amount of speakers, I don't see why it should affect the tone particularly much. Although I tend to find more speakers seems to translate to more low end in the cabs I've tried.



I cannot concur.

I saw a guy using a 2x10 450w Variant of my 2x12 600w Cabinet, using a quality amplfier, and I would not say by any stretch of the imagination that either his tone or his volume could compete with mine. I could barely hear him at 12 feet, and my Amp tops out at 425w.

Your final paragraph contradicts itself. Is not the increase in lows by the application fo more speakers not Tone?

As my response states, Apples (10") and Oranges (15"), but a bunch of apples will do an orange's job nicely.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:43 PM   #14
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Wow Phil.

Now the guy can go out and build his own speaker in any size he wants to, in order to perform to his specifications.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:26 PM   #15
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We've probably scared the guy away by now. This whole thing is getting blown way out of proportion. He simply wanted to know how the speaker size impacts upon the size, and as this seemingly endless debate has proved there's no clear-cut answer to that, simply trends which are often broken anyway. The best advice in this entire thread was given in the third reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutter_101
If you like the sound of a speaker cabinet, buy it and have fun.


There's nothing else that needs to be said by now, really.
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Old 10-20-2012, 12:27 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Sliide90027
Your final paragraph contradicts itself. Is not the increase in lows by the application fo more speakers not Tone?

I know it does, hence the "Although". As far as I know, theoretically it shouldn't have any effect; but from experience I tend to find that for some reason I don't know there is more low end with more speakers (when comparing the same size that is, like a 2x10 and a 4x10).
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Old 10-20-2012, 11:23 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterbox272
I know it does, hence the "Although". As far as I know, theoretically it shouldn't have any effect; but from experience I tend to find that for some reason I don't know there is more low end with more speakers (when comparing the same size that is, like a 2x10 and a 4x10).


It is about Mass Friend. For my lack of Schooling I will call it Choral Mass.

One singer blazing away is not that loud. Now get a 2000 person Choir going and what happens? You can get insane decibels.

There is with a speaker also the reality of harmonics, a great dempnstration of this was, in the past a solider could march accross a suspension bridge all by himself with no problem.

Later it was tragically discovered that you cannot march a large volume of troops across even a modern suspension bridge, because that thing will get harmoically activated and tear itself to shreds.

Mass my friend. Mass
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Old 10-20-2012, 11:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziphoblat
We've probably scared the guy away by now. This whole thing is getting blown way out of proportion. He simply wanted to know how the speaker size impacts upon the size, and as this seemingly endless debate has proved there's no clear-cut answer to that, simply trends which are often broken anyway. The best advice in this entire thread was given in the third reply.



There's nothing else that needs to be said by now, really.



in the final point of purchase Ziphoblat, you are correct.

Your ear and Heart are not going to lie to you. The tone that stirs you heart and mind, and inspires you will be the one you buy...

...if you are not seduced by the marketing and specifications of something that is made on paper to look better.

(marketing- makes me think of the days when the 4x15 Acoustic Amps played then by Jaco were being aimed at us, then many years later the Hartke 4x10's when they first came out-on the way to reinventing the SVT. Oh yes, then Dick Dunn and the Boogie 2x15. I did the 4x12 Boogie, then a Two Way Cab with a 15, now I am on the 1x12 Two way eyeing an addition of a 15 that is supposed to go down to 20 cycles, just to see what it will do to me.)[Wow, we have come a long way]

It can be fun finding something affordable which turns the general conventions of experience upon its ear.

Now that is inspiring.

I used to go to music stores to find something when I did not think I had it. Now I go just to see what is being peddled now.

Last edited by Sliide90027 : 10-20-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutter_101
Speaker size does not impart a particular sound to a speaker.

If you like the sound of a speaker cabinet, buy it and have fun.

Interesting. I thought the 412 is louder (perceived) than the 410 or even the 610 because of the wider mid-range coverage.

In fact, when I use a 412 and a 215, the guitarist gets lost.

IpponEdit: Should've read the rest of the posts from more knowledgeable tech types.

Interesting discussion and also, didn't mean to single out Nutter_101

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Old 10-24-2012, 06:19 PM   #20
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Most people on this topic seem not to be aware that all 18s, 15s 12s, 10, etc are not identical.
The Fender Vibrasonic combo designed for guitar and steel guitar was loaded with a single 15" JBL D130.
The Fender Dual Showmand 2x15 cab was loaded with 2x15" JBL D130s for guitar and 2x15" JBL D 140s for Bass.
The Marshall 1960s 4x12s offered bass or guitar speakers as an option.

So as you see not all speakers are identical.
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