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Old 10-19-2012, 04:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
But...it's not because the influence of Blues is since central to the sound of Jazz up through the 70's.
Yes, blues had been the central influence of jazz. But the vocabulary, idioms, and rhythmic/melodic approaches are very different from pure blues. Also, not all jazz, even from the classic era, always brought out blues characteristics. Bossa novas, popular song, and others all could have jazz renditions. The blues wasn't the common thread binding all of these together. Do you actually study/play jazz? I'm getting the impression that you don't.

Secondly, you seem to suggest that jazz is limited to up to the 70s? Because there is plenty of jazz since then.

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You can't even hear an indication of the relationship between Blues & Death Metal it's so far removed.
I could hear it up to Metallica, which is a precursor to death metal. That's about the same lineage as jazz's whole identity in relations to the blues.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:17 PM   #22
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I have a degree in Jazz performance.

And Metallica isn't death metal...do you even listen to metal? I'm starting to get the impression that you don't.
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Last edited by chronowarp : 10-19-2012 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:20 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
I have a degree in Jazz performance.
Then you're thinking about this in an incredibly narrow way. You've isolated your point to just a tiny fraction of what jazz actually encompasses.

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And Metallica isn't death metal...do you even listen to metal? I'm starting to get the impression that you don't.

Where did I say that Metallica was death metal?
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:21 PM   #24
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narrow...? Me? Are you being serious right now?

You're making a ******edly pragmatic argument about how Jazz & Blues are totally unrelated, and I'm simply acknowledging that Blues is the single most important thing in Jazz, and has been since the beginning...
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:22 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
And Metallica isn't death metal...do you even listen to metal?


He said precursor, to be fair. Although he's wrong either way, but it doesn't seem particularly relevant to the discussion.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:23 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Nietsche
He said precursor, to be fair. Although he's wrong either way, but it doesn't seem particularly relevant to the discussion.




DAT BLUES FEEL
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
You're making a ******edly pragmatic argument about how Jazz & Blues are totally unrelated
No, that's just your piss poor reading comprehension.

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I'm simply acknowledging that Blues is the single most important thing in Jazz, and has been since the beginning...
Of course you would "acknowledge" that, since it makes up your whole narrow perspective.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:26 PM   #28
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Is this real life?
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
DAT BLUES FEEL


You seem to have problems with reading comprehension. Xiaoxi's assertion, as I interpreted it, was to note the blues elements in some early heavy metal tracks, and then to note that it didn't mean that metal as a whole relied on blues vocabulary as it's core. The Dying Fetus track has no blues elements, to be sure. But these definitely have something of the blues in them, albeit in a heavily distorted form:




But the point is that it's not the blues language that makes them 'metal', hence the existence of metal with no recognisable blues vocabulary. In a similar way, Jazz may occasionally utilise blues devices, but that doesn't mean that the blues is what defines Jazz at it's core.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:30 PM   #30
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But his original comparison was "Blues is to death metal as blues is to jazz". He later revised that to have something to do with heavy metal being the precursor to death metal...

Even so, the commonality between any form of metal and blues is less so than that of blues & jazz. Probably because jazz is a continuation of the african-american tradition rooted in blues, then ragtime, then dixieland, and so forth.

Rock music didn't evolve in the same way, which is clear when you group these things in a hierarchy. The overarching point is: at any point, in most jazz, you can distinctly hear the influence that blues still has either in the melodic vocabulary, phrasing, or form.

The same can't be said with most modern rock & metal music.
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Last edited by chronowarp : 10-19-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:34 PM   #31
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Yea I'm sure if you know the blues scale you can produce this

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Old 10-19-2012, 04:35 PM   #32
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Well since you're the only one that mentioned the bl00z scale in this thread...
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:35 PM   #33
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DAT BLUES FEEL
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:37 PM   #34
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I thought that was a sax underwater for a while.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:41 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
Even so, the commonality between any form of metal and blues is less so than that of blues & jazz. Probably because jazz is a continuation of the african-american tradition rooted in blues, then ragtime, then dixieland, and so forth.
What makes jazz so much more of this continuation than rock? Because you said so?

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at any point, in most jazz, you can distinctly hear the influence that blues still has either in the melodic vocabulary, phrasing, or form.
Sure, if most jazz was only relegated to a specific kind of jazz from a specific era.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:42 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
What makes jazz so much more of this continuation than rock? Because you said so?

Sure, if most jazz was only relegated to a specific kind of jazz from a specific era.


Yes & you sure? But let's not get side tracked into tangential arguments.

You said blues is to jazz and blues is to death metal. Is that you're story & you're sticking to it, or do you want to rectify the errors in that statement and we can stop bickering?
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Last edited by chronowarp : 10-19-2012 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:51 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
You said blues is to jazz and blues is to death metal. Is that you're story & you're sticking to it, or do you want to rectify the errors in that statement and we can stop bickering?

Yes, I'm sticking to that. My point is that it is ignorant to always cast them in the same shade as so many who are not familiar with either genres tend to do. Jazz is a style all of its own, requiring dedicated discipline, not merely something that can be easily adaptable after just knowing how to play the blues (which itself is usually underestimated by reducing it to just pentatonic bends). In learning jazz, the ability to play blues lends as much help as that of death metal.

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Originally Posted by Nietsche
But the point is that it's not the blues language that makes them 'metal', hence the existence of metal with no recognisable blues vocabulary. In a similar way, Jazz may occasionally utilise blues devices, but that doesn't mean that the blues is what defines Jazz at it's core.

Glad someone gets it.
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Last edited by Xiaoxi : 10-19-2012 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:53 PM   #38
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I was politely told that bending and jazz don't go together.


My jazz teacher told him that. I just kind of shrugged and did them anyway. I was under the impression that jazz was all about the spirit of improvisation and doing your own thing.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:55 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
Yes, I'm sticking to that. My point is that it is ignorant to always cast them in the same shade as so many who are not familiar with either genres tend to do. Jazz is a style all of its own, requiring dedicated discipline, not merely something that can be easily adaptable after just knowing how to play the blues (which itself is usually underestimated by reducing it to just pentatonic bends). In learning jazz, the ability to play blues lends as much help as that of death metal.


Glad someone gets it.

I take it you prefer European Jazz lol.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:56 PM   #40
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My jazz teacher told him that. I just kind of shrugged and did them anyway. I was under the impression that jazz was all about the spirit of improvisation and doing your own thing.

It's good advice to a point...
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