Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Instruments > Bass Guitar
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 10-22-2012, 09:46 AM   #1
the singer 22
Registered User
 
the singer 22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Cabinet Size

Would an 810 bass cab be louder than a 410 cab because there is more speakers or would it be the other way around because there is less speakers the amp had to put power to?
the singer 22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 09:50 AM   #2
Nutter_101
...
 
Nutter_101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: London, Scotland, or Cornwall.
The 8x10 would be louder. Increasing the number of speakers has a greater effect on SPL than increasing wattage.
__________________
In the bass chat:

Quote:
<Jon> take the quote of me out your sig plx
<Jon> i hate seeing what i said around lol


Leader of the Bass Militia PM to join!


And now on BANDCAMP!

Officially the funniest member of the Bass Forum.
Nutter_101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 09:58 AM   #3
J3G2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutter_101
The 8x10 would be louder. Increasing the number of speakers has a greater effect on SPL than increasing wattage.


This +8x10
J3G2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 10:04 AM   #4
Sudaka
Novice Bass Player
 
Sudaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: ARGENTINA, papá!
Quote:
Originally Posted by J3G2
This +8x10

well played
also, yes, nutter is right.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatalGear41
When you break a bass string, that snapping sound is the sound of six dollars going down the crapper.



Sterling Ray 35
Hartke Ha3500 head - Gallien Krueger 212MBE cab
Tech 21 VT Bass
Zoom b2
Sudaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 10:26 AM   #5
the singer 22
Registered User
 
the singer 22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Okay. I'm running an amped v4bh 100 watt tube head. Would it be too quiet using a 410 cab when playing with a moderately loud rock band?
the singer 22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 10:52 AM   #6
Ziphoblat
Hazardous
 
Ziphoblat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: England
Doubling the wattage results in a mere hypothetical 3 dB (decibels) increase in SPL (sound pressure level), which isn't much at all (that's simulated, it varies a little in real-life applications). Where-as you might think that doubling the wattage doubles the loudness, it's nothing like that. For the human ear to perceive a doubling in loudness you need an increase in the region of 10 dB. The decibel scale is logarithmic which is non-linear and actually increases exponentially, so the difference between 3 dB and 10 dB is huge; in fact the average ear struggles to perceive a change of less than 1 dB. To achieve a doubling in perceived loudness (10 dB) you actually need 10x the wattage - for example a 500 watt amp probably sounds roughly twice as loud as a 50 watt amp.

Doubling the speaker area also has the same hypothetical effect as doubling the wattage (a 3dB increase). That is to say that if you were to use a 4x10 at 500 watts and an 8x10 at 500 watts you'd probably hear roughly the same increase in loudness as you would if you were to run a 4x10 at 500 watts and a 4x10 at 1000 watts. However, sometimes issues with destructive interference can occur when you start to introduce greater numbers of speakers into the equation as you're increasing the potential for a speaker to be moving out of sync which creates phase cancellation, and that can reduce the perceived loudness somewhat - whether that's enough to make a difference is probably situational, and it will likely be negligible either way.

What you'll usually find is that a 4x10 cabinet tends to be 8 Ω where as an 8x10 cabinet will probably be 4 Ω (exceptions apply of course). What this means is that the 4x10 will probably be drawing just over half the power that the 8x10 will (for example if you have a 600 watt amp it will probably give 350 watts into 8 Ω but only 600 into 4 Ω). This means that running a 600 watt amp into a 4 Ω 8x10 will be hypothetically just under 6 dB louder than running the same amp into an 8 Ω 4x10 (if my calculations are correct, which they're liable not to be) because you have a doubling of both speaker area and (nearly) of power. 6dB is an actual doubling of SPL (this isn't to say that we'll perceive it as being twice as loud, because that requires 10 dB as covered). However 6 dB is still a substantial increase (around 60% extra).

So basically in a simulated environment you can expect in the region of 60% extra perceived loudness from a standard 8x10 versus a standard 4x10 if they're being powered by the same amp. It won't happen that perfectly of course because there are plenty of other variants that you can't predict which can affect the scenario (phase issues, room acoustics etc). It's also worth noting that there are 4 Ω 4x10 cabinets available too, for example, though they're rarer than 8 Ω. There are of course other considerations to make in this scenario beyond volume - the sound of having more speakers is often considered to be "bigger" even at the same volumes, which is why the 8x10 is such a popular choice. Additionally, with an amp that has a good amount of headroom you're unlikely to ever need to crank it too hard because nearly all venues big enough for the amp to be unable to cope by itself will have a provided PA system that will give you all the loudness you'll ever need. For this reason I'd worry more about tone than loudness because these days you'll struggle to find a good 4x10 that can't handle most live situations anyway.

Practicality is another point for consideration. Transporting an 8x10 is like lugging a fridge around with you; heavy and too big to fit in most car boots. Two 4x10 cabs is one option to consider because they'll perform almost exactly the same as an 8x10 from the same line of cabs, but you can split the weight load and the space they take up into two separate more manageable boxes. Plus for quieter/smaller gigs or practices, you don't need to bring the full stack.
__________________
Save a Cow,
Eat a Vegan.

Last edited by Ziphoblat : 10-22-2012 at 10:59 AM.
Ziphoblat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 11:02 AM   #7
Icarus Lives
UG Member
 
Icarus Lives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ireland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziphoblat
Doubling the wattage results in a mere hypothetical 3 dB (decibels) increase in SPL (sound pressure level), which isn't much at all (that's simulated, it varies a little in real-life applications). Where-as you might think that doubling the wattage doubles the loudness, it's nothing like that. For the human ear to perceive a doubling in loudness you need an increase in the region of 10 dB. The decibel scale is logarithmic which is non-linear and actually increases exponentially, so the difference between 3 dB and 10 dB is huge; in fact the average ear struggles to perceive a change of less than 1 dB. To achieve a doubling in perceived loudness (10 dB) you actually need 10x the wattage - for example a 500 watt amp probably sounds roughly twice as loud as a 50 watt amp.

Doubling the speaker area also has the same hypothetical effect as doubling the wattage (a 3dB increase). That is to say that if you were to use a 4x10 at 500 watts and an 8x10 at 500 watts you'd probably hear roughly the same increase in loudness as you would if you were to run a 4x10 at 500 watts and a 4x10 at 1000 watts. However, sometimes issues with destructive interference can occur when you start to introduce greater numbers of speakers into the equation as you're increasing the potential for a speaker to be moving out of sync which creates phase cancellation, and that can reduce the perceived loudness somewhat - whether that's enough to make a difference is probably situational, and it will likely be negligible either way.

What you'll usually find is that a 4x10 cabinet tends to be 8 Ω where as an 8x10 cabinet will probably be 4 Ω (exceptions apply of course). What this means is that the 4x10 will probably be drawing just over half the power that the 8x10 will (for example if you have a 600 watt amp it will probably give 350 watts into 8 Ω but only 600 into 4 Ω). This means that running a 600 watt amp into a 4 Ω 8x10 will be hypothetically just under 6 dB louder than running the same amp into an 8 Ω 4x10 (if my calculations are correct, which they're liable not to be) because you have a doubling of both speaker area and (nearly) of power. 6dB is an actual doubling of SPL (this isn't to say that we'll perceive it as being twice as loud, because that requires 10 dB as covered). However 6 dB is still a substantial increase (around 60% extra).

So basically in a simulated environment you can expect in the region of 60% extra perceived loudness from a standard 8x10 versus a standard 4x10 if they're being powered by the same amp. It won't happen that perfectly of course because there are plenty of other variants that you can't predict which can affect the scenario (phase issues, room acoustics etc). It's also worth noting that there are 4 Ω 4x10 cabinets available too, for example, though they're rarer than 8 Ω. There are of course other considerations to make in this scenario beyond volume - the sound of having more speakers is often considered to be "bigger" even at the same volumes, which is why the 8x10 is such a popular choice. Additionally, with an amp that has a good amount of headroom you're unlikely to ever need to crank it too hard because nearly all venues big enough for the amp to be unable to cope by itself will have a provided PA system that will give you all the loudness you'll ever need. For this reason I'd worry more about tone than loudness because these days you'll struggle to find a good 4x10 that can't handle most live situations anyway.

Practicality is another point for consideration. Transporting an 8x10 is like lugging a fridge around with you; heavy and too big to fit in most car boots. Two 4x10 cabs is one option to consider because they'll perform almost exactly the same as an 8x10 from the same line of cabs, but you can split the weight load and the space they take up into two separate more manageable boxes. Plus for quieter/smaller gigs or practices, you don't need to bring the full stack.

It's like I've always known it, just couldn't express it. This is correct anyway.
__________________
***
My youtube channel, with my lovely lovely songs: http://www.youtube.com/user/RuMew?feature=mhee
***
Icarus Lives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 02:06 PM   #8
John Swift
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sheffield England
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziphoblat
Doubling the wattage results in a mere hypothetical 3 dB (decibels) increase in SPL (sound pressure level), which isn't much at all (that's simulated.

DBs are measured in a Log scale not Linear, adding three Dbs at 100 Dbs will make a massive difference.
__________________
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
John Swift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 03:37 PM   #9
Ziphoblat
Hazardous
 
Ziphoblat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: England
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Swift
DBs are measured in a Log scale not Linear, adding three Dbs at 100 Dbs will make a massive difference.


Yes, I'm aware of that as covered in my post. We use decibels because the human ear hears in a particular way. When it is exposed to higher SPL it becomes less sensitive to quieter sounds. With the logarithmic decibel scale decibels can be equated to a percentage (ie a 6 dB incease is a 60% increase, a 10 dB increase is a 100% increase). Ergo a 3 dB increase in SPL is equivalent to a 30% increase in perceived loudness, regardless of where you are on the decibel scale. Going from 40 dB to 43 dB equates to far less of a pressure increase than going from 100 dB to 103 dB as you said, but because of the way the ears sensitivity behaves the perceived change in loudness between 40 dB and 43 dB remains relatively the same as going from 100 to 103 dB. I wasn't talking specifically to what's going on in the room where the cab is being played, rather the way that a human ear is going to perceive it.
__________________
Save a Cow,
Eat a Vegan.
Ziphoblat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 06:56 PM   #10
Sliide90027
Registered User
 
Sliide90027's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Answer (in English): You are not focusing in the correct direction.

A Cabinet change in the 8x10 or 4x10 arena is not going to help you.

Your power limitations are what is going to keep you down, not any speaker selection.

If you get a larger cabinet you will more likely blow speakers with dirty power, and as well damage the power tubes from running too low resistance as the speakers reach down the cable and bitch slap your tubes into oblivion. (There could be a fire with the power failure due to improper operation.) [I remember a band I was in had me replacing power transistors on a Peavey CS-800 before every show since the 4x18" Gauss Speakers at 800 Watts each yanked th epower transistors out of the amp every night.]

Your amp will work for a very small venue jazz club trio, but any heavy hitter will drown you out. That is even if you found a 1x12 cab with a 100w Eminance or 2 50w 12's wired in Parallel. (Check me on this, look up a wiring diagram for resistance on speakers of your Ohm rating, someone here will call me down on any error. Dang Techsons)

I would not even think about hooking that amp up to a 200 or 300 watt 12 like an EV12L. I would not lay the speaker out for sacrifice.

This is a conservative estimation based on a little data.

Last edited by Sliide90027 : 10-22-2012 at 11:48 PM. Reason: Modification
Sliide90027 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 04:35 AM   #11
Phil Starr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Somerset,UK
Ziphobat has it right. One minor point though, with a valve amp there is usually no loss of power when changing impedance(ohms) as this is all sorted by the output transformer.

Your question is would a 4x10 be loud enough?

the answer is almost certainly YES but there are a few provisos.

You have a 100W valve amp. This doesn't give you a lot of peak power but because you have a valve amp you can run it closer to it's max because the distortion sounds OK. This means your average power is noticeably better which is why valve(tube) amps are said to be louder.

because every time you double the speakers you get an extra 3db any 4x10 is likely to be quite efficient (loud for each watt you put in). Only the cheapest of 4x10's will be inadequate and the most efficient will need you to turn down quite a lot. Spending an equal amount on a 4x10 will buy a better speaker than an 8x10 at the same price band.

In dB terms a cab that gives 100dB for 1W will give 120dB max for your 100W. This will enable you to play happily at over 100dB average, which is enough to permanently damage your hearing and that of your bandmates. This is the sort of level measured on stage and 10metres into the audience at major festivals from the whole band.


The only disadvantage of a 4x10 is that the extra height of an 8 means the top speakers are pointing at the important bit, your ears. A 4 is going to point at your ankles and they don't hear so well. Two 2x10's stacked will give you the same output but in a more band friendly fashion and for practice (and most gigs if we are honest) you need only take one. 8x10's look good though.

In practice most experienced bass players are going lightweight. With a valve amp you might be stuck with a fridge though as you need the extra efficiency. Choose on quality of sound though, not volume.
Phil Starr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 06:28 AM   #12
John Swift
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sheffield England
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziphoblat
Yes, I'm aware of that as covered in my post. We use decibels because the human ear hears in a particular way. When it is exposed to higher SPL it becomes less sensitive to quieter sounds. With the logarithmic decibel scale decibels can be equated to a percentage (ie a 6 dB incease is a 60% increase, a 10 dB increase is a 100% increase). Ergo a 3 dB increase in SPL is equivalent to a 30% increase in perceived loudness, regardless of where you are on the decibel scale. Going from 40 dB to 43 dB equates to far less of a pressure increase than going from 100 dB to 103 dB as you said, but because of the way the ears sensitivity behaves the perceived change in loudness between 40 dB and 43 dB remains relatively the same as going from 100 to 103 dB. I wasn't talking specifically to what's going on in the room where the cab is being played, rather the way that a human ear is going to perceive it.


The way that the human ear hears it is exactly what I said, theory goes out of the window on stage.
What counts is how it comes out to the human ear and as I said 3 Dbs added at 100 Dbs is far more noticable than 3 Dbs added at 30 Dbs.

Speaker manufacturers used to claim many spurious ways of performance from their speakers the most ridiculous being the 1 watt @ 1 Mtr @ 1 khz (ridiculous for Bass speakers) until Ken Dibble exposed most of the claims in the late 70s including those made by Altec & Gauss whose performance lagged well behind many inexpensive brands such as the late Brian McKenzie whose £12.50 12" speaker performed better in some cases than some up market brands.
__________________
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
John Swift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 08:28 AM   #13
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
Erm... Remember that your output power is still the same. So the output power per speaker is lower when you have more speakers. 100 watt amp, 4 speakers = 25 watts per speaker. 100 watt amp, 8 speakers = 12.5 watts per speaker.

EDIT: I mean, by some of the people's logic here two 100 watt amps through 4x10 cabinet would be as loud as one 100 watt amp through 8x10, which isn't true. If you have two amps, the overall power is 200 watts. When you have one amp, the overall power is 100 watts and it's not 100 watts per speaker, it's 100 watts per four speakers ie 25 watts per speaker. Because why would people have many amps on the stage if one amp could be used through five 8x10 cabinets and the volume level would be mind blowing. You could connect a small 10 watt practice amp to 10x10 cab and the volume level would be the same as 100 watt amp through 1x10 cab (not true). The power is always 100 watts and it's divided in two, four, six, eight, whatever speakers.

I'm assuming that the cabs use same speakers.

Also, the speakers have nothing to do with volume (except the speaker sensivity). It's the amp that is loud or not loud enough.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c

Last edited by MaggaraMarine : 10-23-2012 at 12:20 PM.
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 09:08 AM   #14
the singer 22
Registered User
 
the singer 22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
@philstar my amp is all tube not valve
the singer 22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 12:07 PM   #15
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
Quote:
Originally Posted by the singer 22
@philstar my amp is all tube not valve

Tube = valve if you didn't know. Valve is the British English term, tube is the American English term.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 12:39 PM   #16
the singer 22
Registered User
 
the singer 22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Oh. Alright
the singer 22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 04:57 PM   #17
John Swift
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sheffield England
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Erm... Remember that your output power is still the same. So the output power per speaker is lower when you have more speakers. 100 watt amp, 4 speakers = 25 watts per speaker. 100 watt amp, 8 speakers = 12.5 watts per speaker.

EDIT: I mean, by some of the people's logic here two 100 watt amps through 4x10 cabinet would be as loud as one 100 watt amp through 8x10, which isn't true. If you have two amps, the overall power is 200 watts. When you have one amp, the overall power is 100 watts and it's not 100 watts per speaker, it's 100 watts per four speakers ie 25 watts per speaker. Because why would people have many amps on the stage if one amp could be used through five 8x10 cabinets and the volume level would be mind blowing. You could connect a small 10 watt practice amp to 10x10 cab and the volume level would be the same as 100 watt amp through 1x10 cab (not true). The power is always 100 watts and it's divided in two, four, six, eight, whatever speakers.

I'm assuming that the cabs use same speakers.

Also, the speakers have nothing to do with volume (except the speaker sensivity). It's the amp that is loud or not loud enough.


Some people foreget and don't realise that if you add another four 10" speakers to a 4x10 that the amp will actualy see another four voice coils to power.

What many people also fail to understand is the difference between volume and loudness.
__________________
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
John Swift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 07:05 PM   #18
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Just remember...
the sound guy is probably gonna run the DI out on your amp
or mic one speaker on your 8x10 cabinet.

be wise.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 10:18 AM   #19
Phil Starr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Somerset,UK
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Erm... Remember that your output power is still the same. So the output power per speaker is lower when you have more speakers. 100 watt amp, 4 speakers = 25 watts per speaker. 100 watt amp, 8 speakers = 12.5 watts per speaker.

EDIT: I mean, by some of the people's logic here two 100 watt amps through 4x10 cabinet would be as loud as one 100 watt amp through 8x10, which isn't true. If you have two amps, the overall power is 200 watts. When you have one amp, the overall power is 100 watts and it's not 100 watts per speaker, it's 100 watts per four speakers ie 25 watts per speaker. Because why would people have many amps on the stage if one amp could be used through five 8x10 cabinets and the volume level would be mind blowing. You could connect a small 10 watt practice amp to 10x10 cab and the volume level would be the same as 100 watt amp through 1x10 cab (not true). The power is always 100 watts and it's divided in two, four, six, eight, whatever speakers.

I'm assuming that the cabs use same speakers.

Also, the speakers have nothing to do with volume (except the speaker sensivity). It's the amp that is loud or not loud enough.


Just to correct this there is an error or two. You are of course right that the power to each speaker is reduced so the output from each drive unit is also reduced (by 3dB) however the mutual coupling of the two speakers gives you a 6dB increase for the same cone movement so down three/up six and you get a 3dB increase overall for the same power input.

Just in case you were worried about the first law of thermodynamics Remember that only about 4% of the electrical energy from the amp is turned into sound so there is plenty of opportunity to increase efficiency.

The big mistake is to think that the amplifier power alone tells you very much. there are certainly cabs out there that have a 92dB/W sensitivity and others with a 102dB/W sensitivity a 10dB difference. To get an extra 10dB from an amp you need to provide ten times the power, so you'd need 1000W through the less efficient speaker to make the same noise as 100W through the better one.

To calculate the max sound output you need to add the power gain of the amp to the speaker sensitivity at 1W. Doubling the power is 3dB and ten times the power is 10dB, so a 100W amp gives 20dB and a 200W amp gives 23dB etc. So your 92dB speaker will give you 112dB with a 100W amp.

Given that the OP has a tube/valve amp with 100W he will need an efficient speaker if he is to cover all possible situations. This ultimately is why cabs used to be so big. Valve (sorry I'm a Brit) amps are expensive and heavy so tend to be low powered and needed efficiency above all else. Transistor amp watts are so cheap, and with class D so light, that you can get away with smaller less efficient speakers and use raw power to give you the volume.

If you are interested all the dB stuff is explained here http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/colu...ng_it_loud.html
Phil Starr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 01:57 PM   #20
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
^^ Oh yeah, that makes sense.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:19 AM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.