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Old 10-26-2012, 09:37 PM   #1
Caaarrl94
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Help me out with understanding keys!

okay so i've been playing a couple years and am pretty comfortable, but i never bothered learning all my scales and keys.

Just a couple really quick questions

1. For whatever key I play in, will the available chord movements be exactly the same?
ie. if i'm playing in Bm and go from Bm to A to G etc
Does that mean if i play in Am, i simply go from Am to G to F.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:55 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caaarrl94
okay so i've been playing a couple years and am pretty comfortable, but i never bothered learning all my scales and keys.

Just a couple really quick questions

1. For whatever key I play in, will the available chord movements be exactly the same?
ie. if i'm playing in Bm and go from Bm to A to G etc
Does that mean if i play in Am, i simply go from Am to G to F.


Somewhat depends what your trying to do. If those are actually the correct chords for the keys basically yes it's like using a capo.

You'll see singers change keys like this as they get older and loose some vocal range.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:58 PM   #3
Caaarrl94
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So in reality, I only have to learn one Key?
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:08 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Caaarrl94
So in reality, I only have to learn one Key?


let me ask you a question - you gave a progression earlier in this thread (Bm - Amaj - Gmaj). if you had to move that to G minor, what chords would you have to play?
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:16 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Caaarrl94
So in reality, I only have to learn one Key?


No what your talking about is "cheats" you can use these because the interval spacings are constant.

If your playing with a guy and he plays a song in G then another in say C you don't want to sit there trying to harmonize by changing your shapes around till you get into the right key.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:30 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Caaarrl94
So in reality, I only have to learn one Key?

As far as how they are structured, that is correct. If you learn how a major key is made with intervals, then you can build whatever key you want by changing the root note. A major key has 7 diatonic chords, and their structure stays the same as well.
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Old 10-27-2012, 01:38 AM   #7
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TS what do you think a key is?

I mean, do you only have to learn one? Well there's only two, major and minor. From there you refer to the tonal center to determine the exact notes. If this doesn't make sense, what do you think a key is?
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Old 10-27-2012, 02:17 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caaarrl94
okay so i've been playing a couple years and am pretty comfortable, but i never bothered learning all my scales and keys.

Just a couple really quick questions

1. For whatever key I play in, will the available chord movements be exactly the same?
ie. if i'm playing in Bm and go from Bm to A to G etc
Does that mean if i play in Am, i simply go from Am to G to F.


a key in western music is some derived interval pattern based on 12 unique notes. most keys are based on diatonic scales (some permutation on whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half step sequence). there are plenty of other ways of going about 'deriving' scales, like strictly interval based (diminished or augmented scales) or maximizing particular intervals (melodic/harmonic minor) or just picking strong sounding notes of the diatonic (pentatonic), etc

how you apply scales (like those diatonic scales) can be very firmly based in certain relationships, like you can use Am->G maj->F maj (though you could also use Am -> Em -> Dm and many others) to play in Am. this is known as 'serial music' or 'serial composition', to base your music off of very concrete musical relationship and to never deviate from these known relationships.

there is also more abstract music techniques. for example, play A maj -> D maj -> E maj and solo over it in A minor. that is pretty much a A maj progression, and you can solo over it in A minor if done properly.

you want a more abstract one? play a A maj 7 chord to a G maj 7 chord, you can solo over that in E maj or A maj. now play an A dominate 7 to G dominate 7, you can still solo over it in the same keys. why? just figured it out one day (i kinda know, but it is not based on serial ideas)

it is best to start serially to have some grounded knowledge in what you're doing. learn how to derive all the basic 1->3->5 chords in A minor, there will pretty much be 7 of them:
-A min
-B dim (B, D, and F)
-C maj
-D min
-E min
-F maj
-G maj

figure out how i did that. then start doing it for other keys. then start writing songs with that. then start finding out how to break these rules.
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Last edited by gumbilicious : 10-27-2012 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 10-27-2012, 02:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
a key in western music is some derived interval pattern based on 12 unique notes. most keys are based on diatonic scales (some permutation on whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half step sequence). there are plenty of other ways of going about 'deriving' scales, like strictly interval based (diminished or augmented scales) or maximizing particular intervals (melodic/harmonic minor) or just picking strong sounding notes of the diatonic (pentatonic), etc


"most keys"? there are only two types of keys. the fact that you think permutations of WWHWWWH are involved is pretty indicative of the fact that you don't own this information very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
how you apply scales (like those diatonic scales) can be very firmly based in certain relationships, like you can use Am->G maj->F maj (though you could also use Am -> Em -> Dm and many others) to play in Am. this is known as 'serial music' or 'serial composition', to base your music off of very concrete musical relationship and to never deviate from these known relationships.


there's a lot more to the concept of serialism that needs to be stated, because what you've given is a gross oversimplification. and even if we were to get into that, TS doesn't even know what a key is, and you want to tell him about serialism? i understand you want to sound smart, but you should have a good grasp on the information you're trying to impart, and, frankly, i'm not seeing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
there is also more abstract music techniques. for example, play A maj -> D maj -> E maj and solo over it in A minor. that is pretty much a A maj progression, and you can solo over it in A minor if done properly.


you'd still be soloing over it in A major. it would never be in A minor. you should stop thinking in scales and start thinking in keys. first, it allows you to see the bigger picture (which, put simply, is needlessly and excruciatingly difficult if you think in scales), and secondly, we're discussing keys here, not scales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
you want a more abstract one? play a A maj 7 chord to a G maj 7 chord, you can solo over that in E maj or A maj. now play an A dominate 7 to G dominate 7, you can still solo over it in the same keys. why? just figured it out one day (i kinda* know, but it is not based on serial ideas)


this paragraph right here makes it completely evident that you yourself aren't even fully aware of keys. if you're going to try to tell me that A7 - G7 (even Amaj7 - Gmaj7, for that matter) is somehow in the key of E major (or even related to E major), you just don't know what you're talking about. in both cases they'd be extremely likely to be in the key of A major.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
it is best to start serially to have some grounded knowledge in what you're doing. learn how to derive all the basic 1->3->5 chords in A minor, there will pretty much be 7 of them:
-A min
-B dim (B, D, and F)
-C maj
-D min
-E min
-F maj
-G maj

figure out how i did that. then start doing it for other keys. then start writing songs with that. then start finding out how to break these rules.


what happened to Emaj and Gš? again, there's a lot more that needs to be covered that TS isn't ready for...yet.

what TS needs is experience, not tips, tricks, and formulae from people who try to use them as a substitute for experience. TS, you need to buckle down and study theory. it's not the kind of thing you'll be able to slight. the more effort you put into it, the better you'll be. if you don't put in the effort, then you're going to have a stilted knowledge of these concepts (if any knowledge at all).
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:19 PM   #10
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wow, i am a total idiot. thanx for putting me in my place. tearing me down has been pretty constructive for you.

i will freely admit i oversimplified, that evidently is a very grievous error here.
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:52 PM   #11
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:34 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by gumbilicious
wow, i am a total idiot. thanx for putting me in my place. tearing me down has been pretty constructive for you.

i will freely admit i oversimplified, that evidently is a very grievous error here.

being wrong is being wrong, breaux

being wrong and inviting others to join you in wrongville is no good either

if you actually make posts with correct information, people will agree with you

if you learn from this, your anus won't need a baby brother again
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:28 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by :-D
being wrong is being wrong, breaux

being wrong and inviting others to join you in wrongville is no good either

if you actually make posts with correct information, people will agree with you

if you learn from this, your anus won't need a baby brother again


this is how things work in life. there's no excuse for being wrong, and there's no excuse for teaching others wrong information. if you knew what the hell you were talking about, i absolutely would have agreed with you. i don't care about tearing you down -- doing that is a waste of my time. i already know my shit. TS doesn't, and i'm saving him a lot of time an effort by giving him methods that will get him better results..

if you want to sit here and bitch about me tearing you down rather than accept the possibility that you might be wrong and have much to improve on, it might be why you have wrong information in the first place, or why you don't have the results you're looking for.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:37 AM   #14
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by macashmack
I can't pick up passive aggressiveness and sarcasm on the internet.


i'm not passively aggressive at all - i'm actively aggressive. passive-aggressiveness is for cowards who can't get what they want unless they stab people in the back.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:59 AM   #16
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i'm not passively aggressive at all - i'm actively aggressive. passive-aggressiveness is for cowards who can't get what they want unless they stab people in the back.


I wasn't talking about you (and i agree with your passive aggressive comment, i am also more overt aggressive in my nature) i was referring to Gumbilicious post
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:10 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by TK1
As far as how they are structured, that is correct. If you learn how a major key is made with intervals, then you can build whatever key you want by changing the root note. A major key has 7 diatonic chords, and their structure stays the same as well.

I agree here. I have some Knowlege and schooling and if you are playing in the key of Am which is the same as C except using minors than I think you dont want to change structures. Does that Help?
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:08 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by New Maton
key of Am which is the same as C except using minors


...wut

do you want to clarify that? if you want, i'll give you another crack at that.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:36 AM   #19
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I can't pick up passive aggressiveness and sarcasm on the internet.

Me either! Isnt it funny how the people on this thread are joking around with each other using insults??? Talk about laugh...!!

Or have I got it wrong...?

Anyone...?

..anyone...?

<<cue cricket chirp noise>>
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:01 AM   #20
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I agree here. I have some Knowlege and schooling and if you are playing in the key of Am which is the same as C except using minors than I think you dont want to change structures. Does that Help?


Well A minor and C major share a key signature (of 'no sharps or flats'), but some forms of the A minor scale (harmonic and ascending melodic) have accidentals (F#, G#) that aren't part of the C major scale.
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