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Old 10-29-2012, 03:12 PM   #21
AeolianWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CryogenicHusk
I'm hardly an expert, but in IMHO Satch is more of a blues/blues rock person. The ones of his kind that know theory usually know what they need to know and do well like that without having to delve deeper.


there's no requisite to delve deeper. if you want to know more, you learn more. if you take the attitude that "you don't have to delve deeper", you become outclassed. no two ways about it. i'm not knocking satch, but face it - as good as he is, he's outclassed.

do you want to be thought of as the one who truly and thoroughly knows his craft? or do you want to advocate "remember, kids, you know enough"?
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:21 PM   #22
CryogenicHusk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
there's no requisite to delve deeper. if you want to know more, you learn more. if you take the attitude that "you don't have to delve deeper", you become outclassed. no two ways about it. i'm not knocking satch, but face it - as good as he is, he's outclassed.

do you want to be thought of as the one who truly and thoroughly knows his craft? or do you want to advocate "remember, kids, you know enough"?


Yeah I wasn't knocking satch either. Like I said, He's one of my favorite players but you're right, there's MANY out there who outclass him.

I was not advocating the "you know enough" train of thought at all. I think that no matter your favorite style, the more styles you understand, the better. Understanding what you are doing will make you a better musician. But even with that in mind, if you write pop tunes, it's probably not essential that you master the subject of counterpoint (if you are truly passionate about music as a whole, you probably should, though) or that your compositions strongly reflect your knowledge on that subject. It's also a matter of your works not necessarily reflecting EVERYTHING you know, if you know a lot of theory. Some things you will use if the style calls for it (although many interesting things can happen if you don't limit yourself to that. But I'm just trying to say there's nothing wrong with setting a limit if that's what you choose to do. Either way it's always best to have arsenal of tools and even if you don't use them all, you at least know about the ones you chose not to use).

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Old 10-29-2012, 03:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CryogenicHusk
Yeah I wasn't knocking satch either. Like I said, He's one of my favorite players but you're right, there's MANY out there who outclass him.

I was not advocating the "you know enough" train of thought at all. I think that no matter your favorite style, the more styles you understand, the better. Understanding what you are doing will make you a better musician. But even with that in mind, if you write pop tunes, it's probably not essential that you master the subject of counterpoint (if you are truly passionate about music as a whole, you probably should, though) or that your compositions strongly reflect your knowledge on that subject. It's also a matter of your works not necessarily reflecting EVERYTHING you know, if you know a lot of theory. Some things you will use if the style calls for it (although many interesting things can happen if you don't limit yourself to that. But I'm just trying to say there's nothing wrong with setting a limit if that's what you choose to do. Either way it's always best to have arsenal of tools and even if you don't use them all, you at least know about the ones you chose not to use).


i don't believe in the types of musicians that "write pop tunes" or "write metal riffs" or "produce beats". one trick ponies. i'm very serious about what i do, so i don't waste time. i don't skip concepts - i go to learn everything, and i think that good musicians should be that way. no truly good musician will ever make a single excuse about anything. is that fair to say?

i agree that one work will probably not reflect everything the musician knows, but the entire catalog of the musician's work absolutely should.
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:37 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
i don't believe in the types of musicians that "write pop tunes" or "write metal riffs" or "produce beats". one trick ponies. i'm very serious about what i do, so i don't waste time. i don't skip concepts - i go to learn everything, and i think that good musicians should be that way. no truly good musician will ever make a single excuse about anything. is that fair to say?


Absolutely! I am on that train of thought too... if I could learn enough theory and had enough practice that I could write/play ANY genre within minutes (or at least get started writing... even if I have never listened to it attentively before), it'd be a dream come true, lol. I'm talking about everything from funk to modern atonal music. But with that in mind, it's humbling that even if I did get to that level, I'll likely never be as influential as Jimi Hendrix was.

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i agree that one work will probably not reflect everything the musician knows, but the entire catalog of the musician's work absolutely should.


Well, true, especially if he has several projects going on.
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by CryogenicHusk
Absolutely! I am on that train of thought too... if I could learn enough theory and had enough practice that I could write/play ANY genre within minutes (or at least get started writing... even if I have never listened to it attentively before), it'd be a dream come true, lol. I'm talking about everything from funk to modern atonal music. But with that in mind, it's humbling that even if I did get to that level, I'll likely never be as influential as Jimi Hendrix was.


then you've got the right thought process -- keep it up!
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:48 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
then you've got the right thought process -- keep it up!



Thanks, I will! I know it's a life-long process, and I hope to stick to it life-long
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:32 PM   #27
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am i the only one that throws up when satch talks about pitch axis theory though i'm not even talking about his music but when he tries to pretend he knows theory i just want to kill myself so hard
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:58 AM   #28
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I hear a ton of blues influence in Satch's playing and I absolutely love it... he's way more blues based than many think. He's one of my favourite players...he has a real knack for melody... not only the grand piece-long melody themes...but also the little fills and asides...great stuff

That being said...some of the "modes demystified" guff on youtube can seem a little oversimplified and doesnt always really tell a beginner how to use it in a song...unless you're playing over a drone note....

...and the inverting diads and triads thing to modulate between keys.... well thats a no-brainer once you've got intervals and chord construction etc down...

... but those are minor gripes...because he has a GREAT sense of melody and song construction.... and I would trade places with him in a minute

...and I'd also swap with the generic one trick ponies who are currently drinking pina coladas while collecting royalty checks....
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:32 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 91RG350
...and I'd also swap with the generic one trick ponies who are currently drinking pina coladas while collecting royalty checks....


there are millions of ways to make money in this world -- making money is easy. leaving a legacy is more important to me. if the money is your prime concern, then i think you're in the wrong business...
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:52 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
there are millions of ways to make money in this world -- making money is easy. leaving a legacy is more important to me. if the money is your prime concern, then i think you're in the wrong business...


I'll leave the sweeping generalization about my personal and artistic integrity aside, and ask you this hypothetical:

Some random music guru hears you play three chords and a handful of notes in a certain way and starts jumping up and down, yelling; "AeolianWolf! STOP! Dont change a thing! Im gonna get Katy Perry to do that song! Here's a publishing deal! Royalties are coming your way, pal!!!"

...and you would tell abovementioned random music guru to "talk to the hand", right?
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:31 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by 91RG350
I'll leave the sweeping generalization about my personal and artistic integrity aside, and ask you this hypothetical:

Some random music guru hears you play three chords and a handful of notes in a certain way and starts jumping up and down, yelling; "AeolianWolf! STOP! Dont change a thing! Im gonna get Katy Perry to do that song! Here's a publishing deal! Royalties are coming your way, pal!!!"

...and you would tell abovementioned random music guru to "talk to the hand", right?
You would be insane to pass that opportunity by. It's not (necessarily) like you're selling your soul to the industry.

Even if you aren't in it for the money, any professional musician needs to make ends meet. If anything, this would help fund your REAL musical interests. What if you're a struggling musician in wedding bands, cover bands, etc. who really just wants to play some experimental technical funk, but can't make a living off of it because there's not enough audience for it. Now you can do that all you want because you don't have to worry about paying the bills.

Of course, this isn't really the kind of thing we're talking about. We're talking about the kind of people who wouldn't know what some dirty technical funk music was if it hit them in the face. We're talking about the people who do sell their soul to the industry.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:49 PM   #32
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To quote AlanHB on "selling out":

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Originally Posted by AlanHB
Well it usually means "artist changes style on advice from big company in order to make money", but just think of it from a logical standpoint. If big company wants artists that sound a certain way, why don't they just find an artist who sounds that way already? Answer is they do.


I found it very agreeable. If a guru likes your music for what it is, I'd consider it luck and just go with the flow and not let the opportunity pass. You can always walk away later if you prefer things how they used to be.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:12 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Hail
am i the only one that throws up when satch talks about pitch axis theory though i'm not even talking about his music but when he tries to pretend he knows theory i just want to kill myself so hard


It explains a compositional process that he uses. Messiaen's 'Modes of limited transposition' concept doesn't fit into your typical college level theory curriculum but that doesn't mean it isn't appropriate for analyzing Messiaen's music.

Early satch also demonstrates that he DOES know theory, at least on par with most regulars on this forum.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 91RG350
I'll leave the sweeping generalization about my personal and artistic integrity aside, and ask you this hypothetical:

Some random music guru hears you play three chords and a handful of notes in a certain way and starts jumping up and down, yelling; "AeolianWolf! STOP! Dont change a thing! Im gonna get Katy Perry to do that song! Here's a publishing deal! Royalties are coming your way, pal!!!"

...and you would tell abovementioned random music guru to "talk to the hand", right?


explain to me how, if i was to take that deal, it would be selling out. in that situation, they've pursued me, leaving me free to my own devices. i didn't seek them out - so i work for them, and continue to do my own thing. don't you agree it's better to have multiple projects going on?

in your aspiration to stop me in my tracks you've neglected to think a major part of your own argument through.

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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
Early satch also demonstrates that he DOES know theory, at least on par with most regulars on this forum.


but dude, he plays over so many tracks using the sick phrygian dominant scale!

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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
It explains a compositional process that he uses. Messiaen's 'Modes of limited transposition' concept doesn't fit into your typical college level theory curriculum but that doesn't mean it isn't appropriate for analyzing Messiaen's music.


i think that in this portion alone, there's a lot to think about here.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:52 PM   #35
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selling out, wtf.

are we like 11?
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:04 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Ignore
This is mostly in regard to blues but it can be referred to music in general so im putting it here.
I saw the Master class with B.B.King hosted by robben ford.
To make a long story short BB explained that he hears what hes gonna play before he plays it. But what do you think is his aproach to effortlessly find those tones he wants to play on the fretboard.
He has surely played long enough to be super familiair with most of the stuff he does but in that masterclass he improvised alot on the spot. He also said he never learned all the pentatonic positions and since he mixes alot of major and minor all the time its all in the ears. Do you think he knows what each tone's interval is and connects the stuff he hears with the intervals?

well coming from someone who can improvise pretty well, i do usually know what i'm going to play before i play it. but it's not like i'm hearing the solo before it happens or anything. i just know what certain things sound like in relation to the key i'm in. improv really is about putting together things you know in a new way on the spot. but maybe only 10% of what you play is truly "made up" on the spot. the more you do it, the more your bag of tricks grows and the more you can make the made up stuff sound like you did it on purpose :P

it also helps to listen to a lot of music. usually if a solo section starts, or even just the song starts, i'll hear what i would play over it or what i think would sound good. then that's basically how i start. blues soling especially is about telling a story. so think more like a singer if that helps. i know BB king says he tries to make the guitar sound like a voice singing rather than an instrument. that's really a big part of his and other blues players' sound. get some backing tracks, put on some CD's, learn some licks, use them, come up with variations, make your own licks, jam with others, etc... when i started playing, i never played scales. i would learn them of course, but then i would just spend hours jamming over songs or just noodling. now i do a bit of scale practice, but most of my practice is improv or creative in nature somehow. it takes time, and it may take a few years to be really good, but it's worth it.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:06 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
selling out, wtf.

are we like 11?


i'm twice that...
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:34 PM   #38
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then why are you wasting your time talking about such shit?
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:24 PM   #39
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then why are you wasting your time talking about such shit?


because we're having a discussion. i'm sorry, i wasn't aware that age makes certain topics taboo. when you get your panties out of a knot and have something relevant to add to the discussion without being a total douche-nozzle, you can come on back (but fix your wedgie first!).

at least when i make comments like this, i add to the discussion or present information that's of some use...
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:25 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
explain to me how, if i was to take that deal, it would be selling out...

Sorry... I must have misunderstood... I thought that musicians who "write pop tunes" were "one trick ponies"
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