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Old 11-01-2012, 12:18 PM   #1
Vin71
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Is metal an advanced form of music?

I always thought metal was like the new classical, most of the songs are unique and trys new things etc and are very musical compared to alot of mainstream stuff, but I was surprised to find they only have jazz and classical programs mainly in colleges, and seem to frown upon rock and metal... Why is this? lol
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:36 PM   #2
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Because the vast majority of metal songs use fairly musically simple minor key riffs, standard bVI - bVII - i type progressions and minor/pentatonic type solos. Metal isn't really a genre that adapts well to a typical music learning environment anyway, I've had a couple of contemporary music history classes that briefly touched on metal and the coverage was usually a couple of sentences about Priest and Sabbath and then a bunch of godawful shite probably written by someone whose familiarity with the genre most certainly didn't extend past reading the wikipedia page on the subject. Even if a music course which focused solely on metal existed you'd probably still be better off just listening to lots of it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:47 PM   #3
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No, metal is pretty simple. If you think metal is the new classical, you don't really know much about classical music.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:07 PM   #4
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Well, some metal is "musically advanced", but most of it sticks around the same area. I'm not entirely sure but as far as guitar goes i'm pretty sure the holy grail of music degrees is Jazz, lots of crazy stuff goin' on there. You're kind of right when you say it's the new classical, they draw a lot of relations, just listen to some of Bach's fugues.

edit: Also you're better off figuring out rock and blues by yourself, that's the way it's meant to be.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:08 PM   #5
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Man, are you guys sure?

Bands like: Equilibrium, Ensiferum, Galneryus, Balflare, Rhapsody of Fire, Vintersorg, Apocolyptical, Kamelot..

I jsut threw a few bands out there that I think play somewhat advanced stuff, can you guys link me to something that would be considered musically advanced so I can compare some of it? I mean I know all about mozart beethoven vivadli and stuff and have listened to alot their stuff, but alot of metal bands play solos and sound almost like them, I guess that's neo classical genre or something

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You're kind of right when you say it's the new classical, they draw a lot of relations

Yeah, I kind of hear alot of fast paced melodic stuff in metal just like in classical, that's why I made the comparison lol I mean out of all the music genres currently, wouldn't you say metal is most close to classical?

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Old 11-01-2012, 01:18 PM   #6
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Metal is pretty wide genre. For example compare glam metal to death metal and there are hardly anything in common between the two sub genres other than both have drums, guitar and bass. And most of metal isn't really unique. The first metal bands were unique but so were the first pop, rock, jazz, blues, funk, hip hop... whatever bands. Metal isn't really harmonic (neither is rock). It's pretty much riff based music. You play a riff in E minor that contains many power chords that don't really have any harmonic function and then maybe play the same riff in A. I don't know if they are more musical than the basic pop songs. They may have a bit more complicated structures but again, it's a wide genre. There's prog metal that's more complicated structure and harmony wise but then there's glam metal that is pretty near pop music with simple riffs and structures.

But I wouldn't compare metal to classical. They are different genres and also classical isn't "dead". People still make classical music. Also, listening to metal isn't considered "sophisticated" like listening to classical and jazz is. Of course classical music has inspired some metal artists but I'm pretty sure classical has also inspired many pop artists.

About that college thing: Jazz and classical have so much more to learn about them. Also they are for all instruments, not just for electric guitar, bass and drums. They aren't riff based like most metal is. Because rock and metal are pretty much based on riffs: You repeat the same riff and then change the riff and repeat it. It sounds good but the "rock/metal theory" is pretty simple.

EDIT: Yes, there are sub genres like neo classical metal and power metal that are more near to classical. But again, classical music is very progressive. They have lots of different melodies in one song and the melodies are more complicated. Most of metal is riff based just like rock.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vin71
I always thought metal was like the new classical, most of the songs are unique and trys new things etc and are very musical compared to alot of mainstream stuff, but I was surprised to find they only have jazz and classical programs mainly in colleges, and seem to frown upon rock and metal... Why is this? lol


First, you dont know a lot about classical in that case. Classical and Jazz are more complex and have much more depth to them than Metal does. Until you try to play either one of those styles, your likely to not understand what Im talking about.

A lot of metal heads have this persona that metal is the highest art form or whatever and it may be more complex than your average pop song but it doesnt even scratch the surface of what classical and jazz have to offer.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:42 PM   #8
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To be totally fair, there's probably something to be said for comparing bands like Rhapsody of Fire and composers like Chopin in terms of the inverse ratio of instrumental virtuosity to musical content.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:45 PM   #9
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Also being complex doesn't mean it's better. I like very simple stuff but I also like complex stuff. But it doesn't need to be complex. Simple stuff like AC/DC is great because it stays simple. They don't try to do anything but straight forward rock. They have great and catchy riffs.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:46 PM   #10
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Classical is the new classical. It's not like it's not around anymore...
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:48 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Vin71
Man, are you guys sure?


yes, we're sure.

how much classical have you really listened to? you say you know "all about mozart, beethoven, and vivaldi", and you've got me wondering about that word "all".

as far as classical goes, mozart, beethoven, and vivaldi aren't really all that "advanced". they were just starting to establish a style - maybe i'd consider the latter half of beethoven's works to just start pushing the envelope. you want advanced? listen to some ravel. brahms. tchaikovsky. second half of the 1800s should serve you well.

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Originally Posted by Vin71
Yeah, I kind of hear alot of fast paced melodic stuff in metal just like in classical, that's why I made the comparison lol I mean out of all the music genres currently, wouldn't you say metal is most close to classical?


no. metal isn't close to classical at all. i really don't get why people are so intent on making metal seem like classical. maybe to try and pull a little credibility out of thin air?

so you're saying that the only genres that have "fast paced melodic stuff" are classical and metal? if that's the case, you don't listen to anywhere near enough music for a musician, and you should start broadening your music tastes. if i think "fast paced melodic ideas", the first genre that comes to mind is jazz, really. but the big part of what makes classical music classical music is the musical form -- the structure which metal rarely to never adheres to.

as maggara mentioned, metal and rock rely on riffs - they're riff-based genres. this idea is so simple that it actually has a name in classical music: the ostinato. and they've been around since before vivaldi's time, so it's actually one of the first and simplest ideas that came about. jmoar's got it right - listen to a couple of fugues. in all of my experience, to this day i still maintain that fugues are the most complex form of music yet in existence.

it's exactly as people say. metal is not an advanced genre. there are many more factors into determining what is and is not advanced than speed. a small percentage of metal is close to classical, but that's almost always because the musician(s) who wrote it had years of formal study and/or training in classical music, and were able to utilize their knowledge and apply it to more modern outlets (i.e. a metal band).

my personal advice to you is not to worry about complexity in music - ultimately it's just a game to see whose dick is bigger. focus on the more important things, such as enhancing your skill, training your ear, studying your theory, listening to a lot of music and analyzing it; becoming familiar with the necessary elements that will help sculpt you into a skilled musician.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:59 PM   #12
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Also, looking at classical music as "fast paced melodic stuff" doesn't do classical music any justice. Classical music is really all about development of a theme or idea, hence why you don't have the verse - chorus - verse - chorus idea in classical music. Metal is pop music and follows popular music conventions much more than classical ones.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:00 PM   #13
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In some ways, metal is advanced in its aesthetics. But it isn't even close to classical music in terms of intellectual development. That is because classical music is, by far, the only genre of music that emphasizes on employing and developing complex musical logic in its works. This is something that most cultures of music, including metal, has never even considered or made aware of.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:09 PM   #14
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guys, guys.

harmonic minor and repetitive sequence = advanced
truncated 16th note rhythms = advanced
arpeggios = advanced, and classical.

get it right or pay the price.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:59 PM   #15
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Depends on the piece.

any music can be advanced [except hiphop, ofcourse].
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:11 PM   #16
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In technical terms, yes, metal can be pretty difficult to actually play well. In terms of composition and theory however, it's relatively simple. I still love it regardless. \m/
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:18 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by satrionic1
Depends on the piece.

any music can be advanced [except hiphop, ofcourse].

Is Busta Rhymes considered hiphop?
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:23 PM   #18
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No, metal is not an advanced music form per se, it's just that on a lot other more popular genres people don't bother taking them to the next level.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:29 PM   #19
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[except hiphop, ofcourse].


hip hop > metal
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:45 PM   #20
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Where did that hip hop thing come from?
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