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Old 11-01-2012, 03:48 PM   #21
AeolianWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satrionic1
Depends on the piece.

any music can be advanced [except hiphop, ofcourse].


you've been listening to some really shitty hip-hop. let me put the shoe on the other foot and show you exactly what you're saying -- maybe it'll click.

"all metal that is and ever was is complete and utter shit. how do i know? i listened to st. anger."
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:48 PM   #22
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Seems I choose some wrong words to phrase things, I know all about the classical composers I mentioned in terms of who they are and what they did, and have listened to some of their popular songs, but not much, I actually have alot of metal covers of those classical songs as well lol

Also, I mainly listen to Progressive,folk,instrumental,power,and neo-classical metal, so I guess that's why I've made the comparison. I really haven't listened to a lot of classical, and I only got into metal 5 years ago but compared to all the previous music genres I listened to, and I listened to alot but mainly the "hit albums" and popular stuff over the years, I actually have like a 50gb folder of music that I've collected and listened to over the years with a wide range of genres but I was never analyzing them as I listened to them, but since I found out about metal I haven't really listened to them, the metal genre just seemed to incorporate elements from every other genre and do things better to me, though after a while I grown back to the other classic rock songs and stuff I listened to before and I like both equally now

I felt the need to defend how much music I've listened to cause of Wolfs post, but his post was really helpful as well.

I didn't know there's still classical music genre out there, it seemed like it was something from the 1800s etc, I guess I really need to brush up on classical and check out some later artists, I had thought beethovens and mozarts etc all the old composers were the best classical music, as they're the ones most famous and mentioned the most, I didn't know the genre went into more advanced stuff beyond them.

Also, I wasn't worrying about the complexity of the music, I love slow simple stuff as well it's just I always thought metal was something compared to classical lol
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:08 PM   #23
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Metal really isn't that complex considering that it's usually just the combination of power chords and going back and forth through scales, though it really repends on the band (Tool is about as complex as you can get). As a whole though I personally think alt rock and electronic music is more complex.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:13 PM   #24
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There's listening to classical music and there's going into what makes it work. If you think metal and classical music are similar, then you haven't gone into what classical music actual "does." But seeing as you didn't know about classical music past the big popular composers, it's easy to see that you have a lot to learn about classical music.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:13 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf

"all metal that is and ever was is complete and utter shit. how do i know? i listened to st. anger."

I know you're making a blanket statement to prove a point but "the unnamed feeling" kicked ass
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vin71
the metal genre just seemed to incorporate elements from every other genre and do things better to me


if you haven't really listened to every genre and have the experience playing it, how can you be so sure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vin71
I felt the need to defend how much music I've listened to cause of Wolfs post, but his post was really helpful as well.


i'm glad it was able to help you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vin71
I didn't know there's still classical music genre out there, it seemed like it was something from the 1800s etc, I guess I really need to brush up on classical and check out some later artists, I had thought beethovens and mozarts etc all the old composers were the best classical music, as they're the ones most famous and mentioned the most, I didn't know the genre went into more advanced stuff beyond them.


it's all stuff you should be looking into. mozart and beethoven started to establish the styles, but later composers really started getting into some interesting stuff - pushing the envelope, exploring boundaries, testing limits. it gets pretty interesting.

the bottom line is that you don't know enough yet -- keyword being "yet". now you're one step ahead of everybody else, because you know something crucial: you know that there's something you don't know. and that's precisely what enables you to improve. keep the attitude you have, couple it with discipline and good old elbow grease, and i'm confident you'll get pretty far.

if you're going to use this as a reason to look into classical music, start with some of the simpler composers like vivaldi, haydn, and mozart (to an extent). listening to them will give you a feel for the rudiments of the style. then start pushing it to beethoven. beethoven is the transition between the simplicity and elegance of the classical style to the variety and experimentation of the romantic era. then, at some point, when you've got a good fitting, go for baroque []. bach's work is so mind-numbingly complex that it's actually a bad place to start, despite having been one of the earlier composers. and at some point, you might want to go into renaissance music - the polyphony of palestrina is a complete and utter wonder. i think that's a pretty good outline. but first, start with classical era. vivaldi is technically baroque, but his work doesn't have a lot of the complex conventions that bach does, and since you're already somewhat familiar with him, i think it'll be good to start with some of his music. in fact, i'll give you one simple piece by all three of the composers i've suggested to start you of. the reason i'm giving you simple pieces is because you want to be able to analyze them -- make sense of them. and if you don't know theory, this is probably a good place to start learning it -- it'll help you absorb all of what you're hearing much easier.

mozart, symphony no. 29 in A major, movement 3 - menuetto


vivaldi, concerto for strings and continuo in A major, movement 3 - allegro


haydn, string quartet no. 62 in C major "emperor", movement 1 - allegro


...and since we're talking about hip-hop,

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Old 11-01-2012, 04:26 PM   #27
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Just to add something that hasn't been mentioned yet....

So far, the discussion has focused primarily on comparisons between the two genres with respect to composition.

With regards to performance, classical and jazz differ from metal (and really, any other genre for the most part) in that metal is played with a pick, meaning either one note at a time, or otherwise fairly simple diads, triads and chord structures. Classical and Jazz often involve playing both the melody and accompaniment at the same time, which requires an entirely different bag of tricks for the right hand.

Sure, a metal player might be just as fast with the left hand, or faster, than a classical or jazz player, but take his pick away and he's probably dead meat.

Consider, for instance: Joe Pass - Summertime

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkin...feature=related

and John Williams - Sevilla

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfRL...feature=related

Both are great examples of playing both melody and accompaniment and/or countermelody at the same time, requiring a highly developed right hand technique also.

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Old 11-01-2012, 04:28 PM   #28
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No, metal is pretty simple. If you think metal is the new classical, you don't really know much about classical music.


If you think metal is pretty simple, you don't really know much about metal.

Quote:
Classical is the new classical. It's not like it's not around anymore...


Technically, Classical is dead because it relates the music to a particular era of time, any newly composed "Classical" music is generally referred to as "Art Music" in the Classical style.

I could be wrong, but that's my present understanding of it, and its mostly semantics anyways.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:31 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
vivaldi, concerto for strings and continuo in A major, movement 3 - allegro

... I love you. That is one of my favorite concertos that Vivaldi wrote. Ever.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:33 PM   #30
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Sure, a metal player might be just as fast with the left hand, or faster, than a classical or jazz player, but take his pick away and he's probably dead meat.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSch...feature=related
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:36 PM   #31
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I think to legitimately discuss something like this question, it's important to establish the parameters. Otherwise you have 10 people speaking different languages trying to argue points that no one else understands.

Musically advanced means what exactly?

Different things to different people.

So, define what musically advanced is to you, so that you have a set of objective benchmarks. Since also, metal has a ton of subgenres, it's almost too broad in its own classification, and even then, you get people attacking you and saying "That ain't metal" To some, GnR was Metal, but not to me. So, point is, define the genre as well.

You see by the time you even make it that far, you've formed the basis of an objective research paper...and all is well and good, but...by then, no one cares anymore.

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Old 11-01-2012, 04:38 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal


Not necessarily supporting what the other guy said, but it is widely known that Chris Broderick received serious classical training on many instruments (not just guitar). He's probably not the best example to refute his claim...

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Old 11-01-2012, 04:43 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by CryogenicHusk
Not necessarily supporting what the other guy said, but it is widely known that Chris Broderick received serious classical training on many instruments (not just guitar). He's probably not the best example to refute his claim...


also, it needs less wanking and more counterpoint
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:46 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by CryogenicHusk
Not necessarily supporting what the other guy said, but it is widely known that Chris Broderick received serious classical training on many instruments (not just guitar). He's probably not the best example to refute his claim...


Any decent metal player is going to be fairly well versed in something other than metal, be it blues, jazz, classical, etc.

If you only know how to play metal, and can only write metal, that's basically genre incest and you get no originality/versatility out of it.

Quote:
also, it needs less wanking and more counterpoint


The first is just arpeggios, so tell that to Paganini, Liszt, and pretty much anyone who has ever ran up an arpeggio.

The second is a classical performance which involves more counterpoint, but its still pretty lax in it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:48 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal


I'm not going to enter into an argument that essentially boils down to a p!ssing match between classical and metal players. I grew up on metal. I love it. I know there are great players.

You've found an exception to the rule, though, albeit not a very good one. He comes right out and tells us that basically he is rifling through a sequential pattern of arpeggios using two-hand tapping stuff. There's a big difference between that and what most classical and jazz players do.

Not to mention the fact that I'd like to see him pull that off on a classical guitar.

Also interesting to note that, long before Eddie V started inspiring generations of metal-heads to learn tapping, Stanley Jordan was doing it routinely as part of his jazz playing.



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Old 11-01-2012, 04:50 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal


Is it me or was that sloppy as ****?
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:54 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by axemanchris

Not to mention the fact that I'd like to see him pull that off on a classical guitar.


CT

he didnt do the tapped arpeggio's but he can play classical guitar...

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:01 PM   #38
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Not to mention the fact that I'd like to see him pull that off on a classical guitar.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49fq...feature=related

And yeah, Stanley Jordan has some awesome stuff.

And I wasn't trying to start a pissing match, I just wanted to try to make a brief point. I believe that many metal musicians have the same musicality of classical and jazz musicians, albeit I will say that it is difficult for a metal musician to be perceived in the same caliber as the others.

Each genre has its own unique complexities, and if we can agree on that than I have no other point except to show a couple of boundary crossings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KLf...&feature=relmfu

All these dudes have studied shit loads of Jazz theory and have been to University to study music. So what do they do? They make really really amazing Jazz Metal.

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:15 PM   #39
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there's more to playing than technical skill. i've never listened to anything broderick wrote and thought it was something i couldn't put together on guitarpro and play slowly with a metronome for a few weeks until i got it.

i just came in to refute the hip-hop being simple bit though
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:24 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal


same video you presented earlier with a different url...you laughed in chris' face and proved absolutely nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal
And I wasn't trying to start a pissing match, I just wanted to try to make a brief point. I believe that many metal musicians have the same musicality of classical and jazz musicians, albeit I will say that it is difficult for a metal musician to be perceived in the same caliber as the others.


frankly, there are reasons for that. i don't believe that - i notice (not believe, notice) that comparatively few metal musicians have musicality like classical and jazz musicians, and here's the thing - the ones that do are also classical and/or jazz musicians...

...so where do we go from here?

i will make the bold statement that i have NEVER seen a metal musician who doesn't play classical and/or jazz with musicality like a trained classical/jazz musician.

sorry, but from an objective standpoint, i'm inclined to side with chris.
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