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Old 11-01-2012, 06:16 PM   #41
Life Is Brutal
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same video you presented earlier with a different url...you laughed in chris' face and proved absolutely nothing.


What? The one I linked was him playing arpeggios/scales on a classical guitar, a Luis Legnani piece to be exactly. Someone said something like "I'd like to see him play this on a Classical Guitar" so I linked it again. Point is, I double posted it.

OH, I GET IT.

You guys are essentially making the point that the theory/technique used in Metal is a derivative from that used in Classical/Jazz, which I would agree on for a large majority of it.

Quote:
i will make the bold statement that i have NEVER seen a metal musician who doesn't play classical and/or jazz with musicality like a trained classical/jazz musician.


I will agree with that, I can't think of a single theory/technique oriented musician who has played exclusively metal with no classical/jazz background. Ron Jarzombek is probably the closest you would find to something in that sense, but even so I'm pretty sure hes studied some classical material.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...moxDI-80S4&NR=1

As for why this is?

I personally believe that's because Metal doesn't have the foundation that Classical/Jazz have. The genre as a whole has only been around for approximately 40-50 years, and that's the very beginning of it.

Also, metal doesn't have the traditional I-IV-V, it doesn't use standard keys/scales, and would basically be a clusterfuck to try and teach someone the basics through it. Compare that to classical music, where everything is much cleaner cut and easy to analyze.

Once you have this knowledge of music theory, from studying what was probably classical/jazz, you move back into metal and apply it, but by that point you're "Tainted" by the other genres.

Tl;Dr - Classical and Jazz are arranged in such a way that it is easier to learn theory from these styles using our current system of music theory/education. Basically, the capital is already established for those styles where as metal isn't objective enough to be used as a substitute.

And I would like to argue that metal upon the higher spectrum of the complexity scale, (Advanced harmonies, phrasing, technique) is either on par, or very close to the complexity in classical/jazz. Take for example Ron Jarzombek above, who utilizes Tone rows, and Exivious who use advanced theory in the compositions.
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Last edited by Life Is Brutal : 11-01-2012 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:59 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amonamarthmetal
he didnt do the tapped arpeggio's but he can play classical guitar...


terrible
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:07 PM   #43
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by the way who really cares if music is advanced (no matter what parameters you might use to define that) anyway as long as it's satisfying and gives the impression the composer wants to put out
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:25 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
terrible


Hes out of tune in places and he could be more articulate, but its still good.

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by the way who really cares if music is advanced (no matter what parameters you might use to define that) anyway as long as it's satisfying and gives the impression the composer wants to put out


And yeah, this. I stopped giving a shit about technicality a long time ago.

I still like Behold... The Arctopus and Brain Drill though, for the reasons you posted.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:45 PM   #45
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I would just like to throw out Tosin Abasi. Crazy good guitarist in both the metal and jazz (maybe even classical...?) forms of guitar playing.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:54 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by AWACS
I would just like to throw out Tosin Abasi. Crazy good guitarist in both the metal and jazz (maybe even classical...?) forms of guitar playing.

I see no jazz from him...

Most claims of "jazz" from people like metal are not really jazz at all.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:19 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
I see no jazz from him...

Most claims of "jazz" from people like metal are not really jazz at all.

Metalheads think chromatic = jazz
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:46 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal

And yeah, this. I stopped giving a shit about technicality a long time ago.


again, technicality in performance has nothing to do with the technicality involved with your approach to themes in the actual composition. it all goes on what you think "advanced" means, but xiaoxi was accurate in saying that classical is an approach to the logic behind music and inherently will be the forerunner in composition whether that means making the most out of 2 notes or straight 32nd note runs.

it's still a dumb thing to try to measure provided you've got a reasonable head on your shoulders and a clue of what you're doing. beyond functional composition, you dabble into the realm of masturbation (wherein classical and metal do approach common grounds)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
I see no jazz from him...

Most claims of "jazz" from people like metal are not really jazz at all.


uhhhh


Last edited by Hail : 11-01-2012 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:51 PM   #49
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^ Not exactly metal...
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:51 PM   #50
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:53 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
^ Not exactly metal...


it's abasi though. all the guy said was that tosin plays metal and jazz proficiently.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:06 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Hail

uhhhh

That's not really jazz though. I looked up some other TRAM videos and there's not really any that demonstrates that he actually has a jazz voice.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:18 PM   #53
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again, technicality in performance has nothing to do with the technicality involved with your approach to themes in the actual composition. it all goes on what you think "advanced" means, but xiaoxi was accurate in saying that classical is an approach to the logic behind music and inherently will be the forerunner in composition whether that means making the most out of 2 notes or straight 32nd note runs.


I meant technicality in any sense.

Quote:
it's still a dumb thing to try to measure provided you've got a reasonable head on your shoulders and a clue of what you're doing.


How "Advanced" something is really can't be measured objectively, only subjectively.

Quote:
beyond functional composition, you dabble into the realm of masturbation (wherein classical and metal do approach common grounds)


Uhh, I disagree here. If someone wants to express some idea that falls outside of Functional Composition, (And I'm not sure what you mean by this), then that shouldn't be considered overkill.

I thought of Schoenberg when you said that, and I think hes expressing something that you can't have any other way of doing it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:52 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal
Also, metal doesn't have the traditional I-IV-V, it doesn't use standard keys/scales, and would basically be a clusterfuck to try and teach someone the basics through it. Compare that to classical music, where everything is much cleaner cut and easy to analyze.

Um, metal uses standard scales. It also uses a lot of accidentals. Again, if you think a lot of classical music is cleaner cut and easy to analyze, especially compared to metal, I don't think you are getting classical music.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:03 PM   #55
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Guys;

Major scale = basic

Harmonic minor really fast with distortion = complex

So TS is right.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:08 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
That's not really jazz though. I looked up some other TRAM videos and there's not really any that demonstrates that he actually has a jazz voice.


well then we need to get into what parameters you'd use to describe a jazz "voice". in terms of the broad composition i'd say it's got heavy roots in jazz (though admittedly that's mostly through terrazas).

and even if he doesn't fall into jazz, it's hard to describe him as a generic metal guitarist that just runs up and down scales and arpeggios (outside of his first album...) and i'd definitely label a lot of his stuff in the realm of complexity.

not that complexity matters but it seems unfair to say "he doesn't really play jazz so it doesn't count he's not as good as joe pass because he doesn't play real jazz"

i liked all of you so much more before this thread why do we have to do this

Last edited by Hail : 11-01-2012 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:19 PM   #57
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did i really log on for the first time after a hurricane to see this
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:44 PM   #58
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For Abasi:

Now, I don't know music the way the majority of you do (especially Xiaoxi), but this sounds pretty jazzy to me, maybe more jazz-fusion. Theres a melody being played, and something of a counter-melody being played in the bass register.

Or this one?:

Xiaoxi, I would really like to hear your opinion on both of these pieces, please, if you don't mind.
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:45 AM   #59
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there's a reason i posted TRAM and not modern meat. "jazzy" in the sense of the word, like "smooth" or "heavy", but nothing actually like jazz.

very good nonetheless, those two are both favorites.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:30 AM   #60
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Hail, do you have any more examples of hip-hop like Busdriver? I've been looking for this kind of music for years.
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