willT08

Way to completely avoid the question. I'll ask it again.

Do you find it morally reprehensible to make women give birth to children that are the result of a violent, forceful, invading crime against their body?

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arabmetallion

compared to the forced extermination [by the mother] of a fetus that does not yet have a say in weather or not it's allowed to live or not then my answer would have to be no

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willT08

You've avoided the question I asked again and made up your own one where I asked you to compare.

Also, if you can't fathom why a fetus doesn't have any say as to what happens to it I think this discussion might be a bit over your head.

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lolmnt

This is a very narrow-minded and ill-informed view of pregnancy. Pregnancy changes the make up a woman's body chemically. Having a baby can permanently alter the chemistry of a body. It takes a toll me physically and mentally.

I understand your view on the fetus, but the victim of a violent crime should not be forced to carry more baggage.

Let me throw this scenario out there for you: your best friend is murdered. They catch the guy who did it. Now you have to high five the murderer every day for the rest of you life.

I know that sounds silly, but the point is that when you're a victim you shouldn't be punished more. You should be allowed to heal.

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ErikLensherr

What if it's a clone baby?

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Thrashtastic15

Where is there a significant difference? Can you demonstrate that the act of fertilizing the two cells somehow creates something that can legitimately and reasonably be classified as a person and receive all of the freedoms and rights associated with that? You actually have to substantiate this with, you know, evidence and reason. Not just draw the distinction because you feel like it and cause women to both lose significant, positive freedoms and in many cases go through unnecessary suffering.

What about if a woman has a miscarriage? Should we charge her with manslaughter?

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willT08

I don't see how you can hold the position that abortion is murder and not follow that accidental deaths of the child need to be treated as manslaughter. Which in turn means supporting that a woman who has just lost her baby has to go to court firstly to prove she didn't purposefully kill her child and then be charged with manslaughter if she manages to.

Considering that 8 of 10 pregnancies end with a dead fetus it would seem impractical to implement this.

I remember in an old thread we discussed whether women would need access to free weekly pregnancy tests so that they could always make sure whether they were pregnant to avoid unknowingly killing a child further down the line.

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arabmetallion

i answered your question and the answer was no, stop trying to play with my words and read what I said again, the fetus doesn't have a say because it doesn't have the capacity to think or speak YET.

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willT08

I'm not. You said no when compared to abortion. This doesn't tell me whether you actually think it's wrong or not, just that you prefer it as an option. Kinda hints that even you think it's wrong really.

So it can't think, can't speak, hasn't experienced anything outside of a womb, hasn't actually experienced the inside of a womb in any meaningful way, is just a cluster of a few cells, no experience of human life whatsoever. Which bit of this smacks of a human life to you?

The fetus doesn't have a say because it's not a human in any meaningful sense of the word. In the UK we stop allowing abortions around the time the brain finishes developing because then the baby is sentient and is a human in a meaningful way. See how that makes sense?

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arabmetallion

but I wasn't talking about pregnancy I was talking about how people are treated in unfair situations. the child that will be born won't be a reincarnation of the rapist so that's not quite the same thing

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lolmnt

My point is that you're giving a woman who was RAPED a lifelong commitment. Having a child is a huge deal. It's not a simple as "Just have it."

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arabmetallion

but what difference does that make in the end? if the fetus were left there to grow it would eventually develop completley. a fetus is a clump of living cells so we can all agree that it is "alive" in the scientific sense, but how does having a fully developed brain distinguish it from other animals

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willT08

Overwhelming chance it wouldn't.


Is this a serious question?

How does human sentience differentiate it from a rat?

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arabmetallion

your making assumptions again there my friend, i did not say that nor did i suggest it. pregnancy is definitely a big deal and all women that go through it should be praised and respected. The point I was making is fixing one wrong with another doesn't seem plausible but of course everyone has a different sense of what's right and wrong, the issue at hand is like Ive said before revolves completely on weather the fetus is infact human

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arabmetallion

I probably should have phrased it better but what I'm trying to say is, why does having an undeveloped brain distinguish it from being human as opposed to just being a clump of living animal cells?

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Ssargentslayer

Duh get it right libtards

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willT08

Well I think most of society have decided that what distinguishes Humans from the rest of the animal kingdom are our faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration and so on. Or to boil it down to something, our state of consciousness.

A fetus with no developed brain is not in the same state of consciousness as the rest of mankind, it is fundamentally separate from us in that respect (as well as a host of biological things it can't do as well). This is the same reason we allow people with severe brain damage to die at the will of their family, how do you feel about that?

Either way, I believe most abortions tend to happen fairly early on in the pregnancy, long before the question of sentience is even an issue and it really is little more than removing a cyst from your uterus wall.

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blake1221

Doesn't the fact that the fetus is well on its way to becoming a "full" human have any weight? Like, more so than just a mass of cells, post zygote. It has a heartbeat, that's life. It has the genetic make up to make it human. That's...pretty human.

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lolmnt

I agree 100%.

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