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Old 11-02-2012, 09:40 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by arabmetallion
compared to the forced extermination [by the mother] of a fetus that does not yet have a say in weather or not it's allowed to live or not then my answer would have to be no


You've avoided the question I asked again and made up your own one where I asked you to compare.

Also, if you can't fathom why a fetus doesn't have any say as to what happens to it I think this discussion might be a bit over your head.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:41 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by arabmetallion
look at it this, why are some people forced to work very hard they're entire lives just because they're parents were poor or the country they were born in while others live easy and lavish lives? is it they're fault? life is unfair, it's an unfortunate reality. financial support and adoption are also options.
This is a very narrow-minded and ill-informed view of pregnancy. Pregnancy changes the make up a woman's body chemically. Having a baby can permanently alter the chemistry of a body. It takes a toll me physically and mentally.

I understand your view on the fetus, but the victim of a violent crime should not be forced to carry more baggage.

Let me throw this scenario out there for you: your best friend is murdered. They catch the guy who did it. Now you have to high five the murderer every day for the rest of you life.

I know that sounds silly, but the point is that when you're a victim you shouldn't be punished more. You should be allowed to heal.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:41 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by arabmetallion
sperm and eggs are released naturally and have the same genetic code as the individual releasing them, a foetus however is unique because it's a result of the fertilization of 2 sex cells and therefore has it's own genetic code. that's the key difference

What if it's a clone baby?
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:44 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by arabmetallion
sperm and eggs are released naturally and have the same genetic code as the individual releasing them, a foetus however is unique because it's a result of the fertilization of 2 sex cells and therefore has it's own genetic code. that's the key difference

Where is there a significant difference? Can you demonstrate that the act of fertilizing the two cells somehow creates something that can legitimately and reasonably be classified as a person and receive all of the freedoms and rights associated with that? You actually have to substantiate this with, you know, evidence and reason. Not just draw the distinction because you feel like it and cause women to both lose significant, positive freedoms and in many cases go through unnecessary suffering.

What about if a woman has a miscarriage? Should we charge her with manslaughter?
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:49 PM   #85
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Where is there a significant difference? Can you demonstrate that the act of fertilizing the two cells somehow creates something that can legitimately and reasonably be classified as a person and receive all of the freedoms and rights associated with that? You actually have to substantiate this with, you know, evidence and reason. Not just draw the distinction because you feel like it and cause women to both lose significant, positive freedoms and in many cases go through unnecessary suffering.

What about if a woman has a miscarriage? Should we charge her with manslaughter?

I don't see how you can hold the position that abortion is murder and not follow that accidental deaths of the child need to be treated as manslaughter. Which in turn means supporting that a woman who has just lost her baby has to go to court firstly to prove she didn't purposefully kill her child and then be charged with manslaughter if she manages to.

Considering that 8 of 10 pregnancies end with a dead fetus it would seem impractical to implement this.

I remember in an old thread we discussed whether women would need access to free weekly pregnancy tests so that they could always make sure whether they were pregnant to avoid unknowingly killing a child further down the line.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:50 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by willT08
You've avoided the question I asked again and made up your own one where I asked you to compare.

Also, if you can't fathom why a fetus doesn't have any say as to what happens to it I think this discussion might be a bit over your head.


i answered your question and the answer was no, stop trying to play with my words and read what I said again, the fetus doesn't have a say because it doesn't have the capacity to think or speak YET.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:53 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by arabmetallion
i answered your question and the answer was no, stop trying to play with my words and read what I said again, the fetus doesn't have a say because it doesn't have the capacity to think to speak YET.


I'm not. You said no when compared to abortion. This doesn't tell me whether you actually think it's wrong or not, just that you prefer it as an option. Kinda hints that even you think it's wrong really.

So it can't think, can't speak, hasn't experienced anything outside of a womb, hasn't actually experienced the inside of a womb in any meaningful way, is just a cluster of a few cells, no experience of human life whatsoever. Which bit of this smacks of a human life to you?

The fetus doesn't have a say because it's not a human in any meaningful sense of the word. In the UK we stop allowing abortions around the time the brain finishes developing because then the baby is sentient and is a human in a meaningful way. See how that makes sense?
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:55 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by element4433
This is a very narrow-minded and ill-informed view of pregnancy. Pregnancy changes the make up a woman's body chemically. Having a baby can permanently alter the chemistry of a body. It takes a toll me physically and mentally.

I understand your view on the fetus, but the victim of a violent crime should not be forced to carry more baggage.

Let me throw this scenario out there for you: your best friend is murdered. They catch the guy who did it. Now you have to high five the murderer every day for the rest of you life.

I know that sounds silly, but the point is that when you're a victim you shouldn't be punished more. You should be allowed to heal.


but I wasn't talking about pregnancy I was talking about how people are treated in unfair situations. the child that will be born won't be a reincarnation of the rapist so that's not quite the same thing
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:58 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by arabmetallion
but I wasn't talking about pregnancy I was talking about how people are treated in unfair situations. the child that will be born won't be a reincarnation of the rapist so that's not quite the same thing
My point is that you're giving a woman who was RAPED a lifelong commitment. Having a child is a huge deal. It's not a simple as "Just have it."
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:02 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by willT08
I'm not. You said no when compared to abortion. This doesn't tell me whether you actually think it's wrong or not, just that you prefer it as an option. Kinda hints that even you think it's wrong really.

So it can't think, can't speak, hasn't experienced anything outside of a womb, hasn't actually experienced the inside of a womb in any meaningful way, is just a cluster of a few cells, no experience of human life whatsoever. Which bit of this smacks of a human life to you?

The fetus doesn't have a say because it's not a human in any meaningful sense of the word. In the UK we stop allowing abortions around the time the brain finishes developing because then the baby is sentient and is a human in a meaningful way. See how that makes sense?


but what difference does that make in the end? if the fetus were left there to grow it would eventually develop completley. a fetus is a clump of living cells so we can all agree that it is "alive" in the scientific sense, but how does having a fully developed brain distinguish it from other animals
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:04 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by arabmetallion
but what difference does that make in the end? if the fetus were left there to grow it would eventually develop completley.

Overwhelming chance it wouldn't.

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a fetus is a clump of living cells so we can all agree that it is "alive" in the scientific sense, but how does having a fully developed brain distinguish it from other animals

Is this a serious question?

How does human sentience differentiate it from a rat?
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:07 PM   #92
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My point is that you're giving a woman who was RAPED a lifelong commitment. Having a child is a huge deal. It's not a simple as "Just have it."


your making assumptions again there my friend, i did not say that nor did i suggest it. pregnancy is definitely a big deal and all women that go through it should be praised and respected. The point I was making is fixing one wrong with another doesn't seem plausible but of course everyone has a different sense of what's right and wrong, the issue at hand is like Ive said before revolves completely on weather the fetus is infact human
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:13 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by willT08
Overwhelming chance it wouldn't.


Is this a serious question?

How does human sentience differentiate it from a rat?


I probably should have phrased it better but what I'm trying to say is, why does having an undeveloped brain distinguish it from being human as opposed to just being a clump of living animal cells?
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:15 PM   #94
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Duh get it right libtards
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:21 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by arabmetallion
I probably should have phrased it better but what I'm trying to say is, why does having an undeveloped brain distinguish it from being human as opposed to just being a clump of living animal cells?

Well I think most of society have decided that what distinguishes Humans from the rest of the animal kingdom are our faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration and so on. Or to boil it down to something, our state of consciousness.

A fetus with no developed brain is not in the same state of consciousness as the rest of mankind, it is fundamentally separate from us in that respect (as well as a host of biological things it can't do as well). This is the same reason we allow people with severe brain damage to die at the will of their family, how do you feel about that?

Either way, I believe most abortions tend to happen fairly early on in the pregnancy, long before the question of sentience is even an issue and it really is little more than removing a cyst from your uterus wall.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:24 PM   #96
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Doesn't the fact that the fetus is well on its way to becoming a "full" human have any weight? Like, more so than just a mass of cells, post zygote. It has a heartbeat, that's life. It has the genetic make up to make it human. That's...pretty human.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:27 PM   #97
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Doesn't the fact that the fetus is well on its way to becoming a "full" human have any weight? Like, more so than just a mass of cells, post zygote. It has a heartbeat, that's life. It has the genetic make up to make it human. That's...pretty human.
I agree 100%.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:29 PM   #98
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Well I think most of society have decided that what distinguishes Humans from the rest of the animal kingdom are our faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration and so on. Or to boil it down to something, our state of consciousness.

A fetus with no developed brain is not in the same state of consciousness as the rest of mankind, it is fundamentally separate from us in that respect (as well as a host of biological things it can't do as well). This is the same reason we allow people with severe brain damage to die at the will of their family, how do you feel about that?

Either way, I believe most abortions tend to happen fairly early on in the pregnancy, long before the question of sentience is even an issue and it really is little more than removing a cyst from your uterus wall.


slavery used to be the norm in many societies and was generally socially acceptable untill a large group of people began to oppose it [at different times and locations], you could say the same thing about abortion even though it's a completely different issue and don;t get me wrong I'm not equating the 2
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:29 PM   #99
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Doesn't the fact that the fetus is well on its way to becoming a "full" human have any weight? Like, more so than just a mass of cells, post zygote. It has a heartbeat, that's life. It has the genetic make up to make it human. That's...pretty human.

It's never been something that sways me. Lots of things have heartbeats, sentience is the absolute key.

At the moment the best guess we have for when sentience appears is when the brain is developed, and that's where my country draws the line just about. UK limits are almost exactly what I'd legislate given the opportunity.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:31 PM   #100
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slavery used to be the norm in many societies and was generally socially acceptable untill a large group of people began to oppose it [at different times and locations], you could say the same thing about abortion even though it's a completely different issue and don;t get me wrong I'm not equating the 2

Was that a reaction to "Well I think most of society have decided that what distinguishes Humans from the rest of the animal kingdom are our faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration and so on."?

I don't even know what to say to you any more. Blake, Element, let's get something worthwhile going.
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