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Old 11-05-2012, 04:35 PM   #81
CECamps
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If there is something you'd like to understand better, but weren't able to fully grasp in the original post, let me know. I'll try to clarify further.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:39 PM   #82
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Yeah man, what you need at this point is to study up on basic amp terminology, which is an adventure in itself.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:01 PM   #83
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I'm with Tubetime. If you can't understand the OP, then you aren't going to understand it. It requires a small amount of base knowledge. I'm not an Electronic Engineer, hell, my Major was Graphic Design, but I understood everything I read. If you don't know the base terminology he's using, why not just head over to Google and look up some of the terms? Craig shouldn't have to spoonfeed you the definition of every basic term he uses. Need to know what an "ohm" is? Try this:

Link Number 1

Wanna know the difference between an EL34 and 6L6? This would be a good place to start:

Link Number 2

Now, most of the information on 6L6 vs EL34 is going to be tone-based, but there are technical differences as well.

Really, though, when it comes down to it, if you don't understand the basic vocabulary behind an article (for lack of better word) like this one, maybe it's not meant for you. For example, you say you're an English Major. What if you wrote an article like this about sentence structure, and I asked you for a "laymen's terms" version of it because I don't know what a preposition is or a noun or a verb? You can't give such a thing. In order to understand something like this, you need to have a basic understanding of the vocabulary used in it. Tubetime did go a little off the rails about it, but the way you asked (the TL;DR thing) made it seem like you were just a lazy ass that couldn't be bothered to read the whole thing. TL;DR doesn't mean that you need a laymen's terms version, it means the article was too long to maintain your attention span, so you didn't read it and you want a summary.

I hope this helps clear up the situation a little bit. If this post gets shut down because of a flame, I'm gonna be pissed, and I bet a bunch of other users are too, so let's keep things kosher, guys.

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Old 11-05-2012, 06:09 PM   #84
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Epic dude. Just epic.


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Old 11-05-2012, 08:43 PM   #85
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Nice work Craig
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:09 PM   #86
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Let me see if I can sum it up for the extremely non-technical. I will quote Craigs post as needed...

Rule #1: An amplifier’s output power does not dictate its low volume performance or tone quality.

Wattage is more or less a measure of the headroom of the amp. Different factors go into how it sounds...

1) Output transformer design & quality
2) Power supply design
3) Signal path circuit design
4) Speaker(s)

Depending on how the transformer is designed or built can impact the way the amp sounds at different levels. Some amps may sound great at low volumes, other not to great. It would be worth comparing to sticking a V10 Lamborghini engine up to a Ford Ranger transmission. It will work better at high rpms and suck balls at low rpms. Its simply not efficient during certain ranges.


The biggest point Craig made was that speakers are often overlooked in the equation. Why did it sound great at low volume in the guitar store? It sounds like crap at home using my own cab?. Could possibly be the difference in speakers (or room acoustics).

The whole point of his post was to inform people that think a 50w amp or a 120w amp is too loud for the bedroom simply are mistaken. The amp they own may sounds like garbage at bedroom volumes, its just not as simple or even practical to point at wattage as the culprit. Often times its cheap components or poor speaker choice. A 100w Peavey may need to be turned up to volume levels too loud for bedroom use while a 500w Mesa may sound like a champ at whisper volumes. Too many factors are involved and often you need to test it out in the environment you are going to use the amp in to see if it will sound good at levels you need it too.

Of coarse I left crap out..... just a quick summary for the guy above. Hopefully it helps.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:13 PM   #87
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I'm gonna show this to all my customers who don't believe me about wattage.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:50 AM   #88
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@Ace: it is a technical talk about the 'wattage' problem. i was unaware you had problems with density of material, i thought you just couldn't literally get through the material.

you seem to express some interest in understanding how amps work, which can serve you well when you are a musician. at the very least, it arms you with knowledge so you aren't as easy to mislead by a salesperson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
I have no idea the difference between a 6L6 and an EL34.


they are actually fairly similar tubes. in fairly technical terms the EL34 is considered a Pentode tube: it has 5 electrodes (wires or plates) that have electric current run through it. the 6L6 is considered a beam tetrode: it uses 4 electrodes with electric current run through them. the reason for electrodes in tubes are various, but if you want a simple example i posted a very basic run down in a blog a while back

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/...ous/blog/86693/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
I dont know what a transformer is or even how a power amp works.


a transformer works off induction. induction is a fairly non-intuitive phenomenon dealing with electromagnetism. the idea is that:
1) if you move an electrically charged item then you induce a magnetic field
2) if you move a magnet you induce an electrical force.
the distance between two objects has an influence on how potent the induction effect is, so the closer you get to the electrically charged item then the more powerful the magnetic field becomes. the moral is that induction does NOT require the two objects touch to transmit the electromagnetic interactions.

a transformer at it's simplest will run two separate wires that are coiled around one another very closely. you will then run an alternating current through one wire, and because of induction, the first wire will induce (1) a magnetic field that changes/fluctuates. this changing magnetic field will then (2) move the charged electrons in the second wire therefore inducing an electrical current through the second wire.

you may ask why? why not just hook the first wire to the 2nd or just get electricity from just the first wire? it would certainly be more efficient this way, you wouldn't waste all the material for a fancy parlor trick. but transformers (as the name implies) are used primarily for changing attributes of the current for the first wire to the second wire by changing the ratio of coils in the wires. so if you need to take a 120V current out the wall to run through a vacuum tube that need ~400V to work properly then you'd use a transformer to 'step-up' the voltage.

as far as amps, i also have another simple blog to get your feet wet.

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/...ous/blog/86585/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
Hell to be completely honest with you i dont know what the difference is between watts and ohms


a watt is a unit of energy conversion. when you turn electrical current in an amp into audible noise or electrical current in a heater into heat then you a 'watt' gives you the conversion output.

an ohm is a unit of electrical resistance (DC) or impedance (AC). if you use a simple direct current analogy of electricity as water in a river flowing down a hill, then
-the current would be the amount of water passing the river at one point
-the voltage would be kinda like the angle of the hill, giving the water the potential to move (as opposed to a flat pond where water doesn't move)
-the resistance would be equal to objects in the river that resist the waters motion, like rocks or changes in river depth.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:10 AM   #89
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Nice Gumbi.


A little basic electrical:
Watts=Volts x Amps
Ohms Law: Volts=Amps x Resistance
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:34 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
Im sure he made it as simple as he could, but i still cant follow that kind of tech speak. Im sorry i just cant, my brain isn't wired like that--always an english major, not a science guy. Im not "stupid, lazy, or too self-absorbed" and i certainly didn't "demand" a synopsis from the author. I have no idea the difference between a 6L6 and an EL34. I dont know what a transformer is or even how a power amp works. Hell to be completely honest with you i dont know what the difference is between watts and ohms, so forgive me for asking politely for a brief summary in layman's terms that i can understand. I don't appreciate elitist pricks like tubetime blowing his anger load all over the place.

edit: ^^shove a cactus up your ass, you maddox wannabe


No need to get so pissed off. If you start a thread asking about the very basics of electrical theory, people will be more than happy to help you out, but that is going a bit off-topic for this thread.
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:27 AM   #91
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Don't jump the gun there.

I think a very basic intro to electrical theory SHOULD be posted in here, to help stop confusion, and as a guitarist, I think you should have some understanding of it, at least enough to provide information, or understand what to tell someone when your amp stops working.
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:55 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by darkwolf291
Don't jump the gun there.

I think a very basic intro to electrical theory SHOULD be posted in here, to help stop confusion, and as a guitarist, I think you should have some understanding of it, at least enough to provide information, or understand what to tell someone when your amp stops working.

That's not what this thread is about. Why the hell should that go in here? How about the 'everything you need to know about tubes' thread? That information is available to those who look, why should we provide it just because people are too lazy to go looking for it?

This isn't a 'Basics of Guitar Amplification' thread. If someone would like to make one then that's fine, but Craig has put effort into this and I think we should enjoy it for what it is. He has already offered to clear up any confusing points for anyone, and no one has taken him up on that offer.

The burden isn't on Craig to educate the world so they can understand this thread, the burden is on the reader to research any points they don't understand independantly until they can make sense of this. Haven't you ever read a book that you have to have a dictionary by your side to read?
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:03 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by tubetime86
That's not what this thread is about. Why the hell should that go in here? How about the 'everything you need to know about tubes' thread? That information is available to those who look, why should we provide it just because people are too lazy to go looking for it?

This isn't a 'Basics of Guitar Amplification' thread. If someone would like to make one then that's fine, but Craig has put effort into this and I think we should enjoy it for what it is. He has already offered to clear up any confusing points for anyone, and no one has taken him up on that offer.

The burden isn't on Craig to educate the world so they can understand this thread, the burden is on the reader to research any points they don't understand independantly until they can make sense of this. Haven't you ever read a book that you have to have a dictionary by your side to read?


Easy there trigger....Ommmmmmm......Ommmmmmmmm....
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:10 PM   #94
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I know, I'm a little heated... But the idea that someone can't make a technical thread without defining terms like 'ohm' is completely ridiculous. The internet started out as a great resource full of information, available to anyone that was willing to look... Now it has become 'can you give me the tl;dr version?' It's just sad. There are resources available, on this very site even, for those who want to learn. Period.

You think people like Craig will continue to share information like this with forums if they are required to cover such basic information every single time?
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:16 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by tubetime86
I know, I'm a little heated... But the idea that someone can't make a technical thread without defining terms like 'ohm' is completely ridiculous. The internet started out as a great resource full of information, available to anyone that was willing to look... Now it has become 'can you give me the tl;dr version?' It's just sad. There are resources available, on this very site even, for those who want to learn. Period.

You think people like Craig will continue to share information like this with forums if they are required to cover such basic information every single time?


Yes, because I think people like Craig are well able to assimilate the reasonable requests for clarification and ignore the rest.

Quit letting stupid people rent out space in your head, they never pay...

I find that a good response (although like yourself, not always the one I use...) to abject laziness and stupidity is to simply point the people employing them in the right direction, pat them on the head and promptly forget they exist...
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:19 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Arby911
Quit letting stupid people rent out space in your head, they never pay...

Sound advice.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:45 PM   #97
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TL/DR

1. Not all small amps sound good turned down low and not all big amps sound bad turned down low.
2. Craig knows what he is talking about. If you can't follow his explanation beacuse you don't even know what an ohm is just accept his conclusion because he's forgotten more than you will ever learn.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:50 PM   #98
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Honestly, im all about learning new things, but idiots like tubetime just really turn me off from the idea of it. I never passed science in high school, the teachers never gave me the time of day. However i do appreciate when folks do take the time to try and teach, so thanks to those that have instead of going all "hurr durr you know less than me so you're stupid" . Im learning here, i just need time and a way to apply it practically.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
they are actually fairly similar tubes. in fairly technical terms the EL34 is considered a Pentode tube: it has 5 electrodes (wires or plates) that have electric current run through it. the 6L6 is considered a beam tetrode: it uses 4 electrodes with electric current run through them. the reason for electrodes in tubes are various, but if you want a simple example i posted a very basic run down in a blog a while back


Ok. Pentode = 5 electrodes? An electrode is basically anything that will conduct electricity. So we have pentode tubes, tetrode (4 electrodes) tubes, im assuming there's other sorts too. Why would a tube have different amounts of electrodes? The more it has, the louder it gets? Or the sooner it breaks up a sound? More electrodes = a more driven tube? So...if that's correct, an EL34 would ostensibly have more headroom.

Quote:
http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/...ous/blog/86693/



a transformer works off induction. induction is a fairly non-intuitive phenomenon dealing with electromagnetism. the idea is that:
1) if you move an electrically charged item then you induce a magnetic field
2) if you move a magnet you induce an electrical force.
the distance between two objects has an influence on how potent the induction effect is, so the closer you get to the electrically charged item then the more powerful the magnetic field becomes. the moral is that induction does NOT require the two objects touch to transmit the electromagnetic interactions.


Induction is any movement, or fairly obviously in another term, the inducement of electricity? So put two opposing magnets near each other, there's induction. Put those two magnets on a ring opposite each other and then spin the ring, you get a lot more induction? Put another two magnets on another, larger ring and place the first one inside the larger one. Spin the two rings with magnets in opposite directions and you got much (exponentially) more induction? Or am i wrong there.

Quote:
a transformer at it's simplest will run two separate wires that are coiled around one another very closely. you will then run an alternating current through one wire, and because of induction, the first wire will induce (1) a magnetic field that changes/fluctuates. this changing magnetic field will then (2) move the charged electrons in the second wire therefore inducing an electrical current through the second wire.


This is a horrendously basic question, but if in the one wire there's an alternating current, in the other wire would there be a direct current? Or are both wires considered one current, with one positively charged and the other negatively charged, hence the oppositely-running current?

Quote:
you may ask why? why not just hook the first wire to the 2nd or just get electricity from just the first wire? it would certainly be more efficient this way, you wouldn't waste all the material for a fancy parlor trick. but transformers (as the name implies) are used primarily for changing attributes of the current for the first wire to the second wire by changing the ratio of coils in the wires. so if you need to take a 120V current out the wall to run through a vacuum tube that need ~400V to work properly then you'd use a transformer to 'step-up' the voltage.


If you have to convert 120V into something higher, do you use a transformer with more wires or coils than are in the outlet, and hence to convert it into something lower a transformer with less coils? Or is that incorrect.

Quote:
as far as amps, i also have another simple blog to get your feet wet.

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/...ous/blog/86585/



a watt is a unit of energy conversion. when you turn electrical current in an amp into audible noise or electrical current in a heater into heat then you a 'watt' gives you the conversion output.

an ohm is a unit of electrical resistance (DC) or impedance (AC). if you use a simple direct current analogy of electricity as water in a river flowing down a hill, then
-the current would be the amount of water passing the river at one point
-the voltage would be kinda like the angle of the hill, giving the water the potential to move (as opposed to a flat pond where water doesn't move)
-the resistance would be equal to objects in the river that resist the waters motion, like rocks or changes in river depth.


Ok that i can understand. More watts = more power. And something can be a million volts, but if it's really low ohms you won't electrocute yourself to death.

Much thanks for the crash course, appreciated. I actually learned a lot from this.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:00 PM   #99
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Dude, you've got a lot wrong there. I'm not putting you down, I'm just saying we don't need to derail this thread to start a science class for you because your teachers were mean. Find a 'Basics of Electronics' book at your library (or just Google it for god's sake) and stop highjacking this thread.

By the way; I'm not an electrical engineer... And know very little about this stuff. I simply research things I don't know but have interest in and ignore things that I don't know but have no interest in. It's pretty simple.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:06 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
Ok. Pentode = 5 electrodes? An electrode is basically anything that will conduct electricity. So we have pentode tubes, tetrode (4 electrodes) tubes, im assuming there's other sorts too. Why would a tube have different amounts of electrodes? The more it has, the louder it gets? Or the sooner it breaks up a sound? More electrodes = a more driven tube? So...if that's correct, an EL34 would ostensibly have more headroom.
No. The main current passes between the two electrodes at each end. The others are there to control that current. That's what an amp is; a small current causing proportional changes in a big current. One of the 5 electrodes (the grid) is where you feed the small signal. The remaining two are there to counteract some unwanted properties of the tube.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
Induction is any movement, or fairly obviously in another term, the inducement of electricity? So put two opposing magnets near each other, there's induction. Put those two magnets on a ring opposite each other and then spin the ring, you get a lot more induction? Put another two magnets on another, larger ring and place the first one inside the larger one. Spin the two rings with magnets in opposite directions and you got much (exponentially) more induction? Or am i wrong there.

When a wire moves within a magnetic field it induces a current in the wire proportional to the speed that it moves. The same effect can be achieved if the magnetic field's strength is changing - again the size of the current induced in the wire is proportional to the rate of change of that field.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
This is a horrendously basic question, but if in the one wire there's an alternating current, in the other wire would there be a direct current? Or are both wires considered one current, with one positively charged and the other negatively charged, hence the oppositely-running current?
The current induced in the secondary is directly proportional to the speed rate of change of current (and it's corresponding magnetic field). Therefore the current in the secondary must also be ac in sync with the primary ac.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
If you have to convert 120V into something higher, do you use a transformer with more wires or coils than are in the outlet, and hence to convert it into something lower a transformer with less coils? Or is that incorrect.
The voltage ratio is directly proportional to the ratio of the number of turns of wire. Twice as many coils, twice the voltage (ignoring any losses)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
Ok that i can understand. More watts = more power. And something can be a million volts, but if it's really low ohms you won't electrocute yourself to death.
No. This high voltage will find a path. The lower the resistance of that path the more current will go down that path. If it has to choose between a resistor and you it will take the easiest path. If you have sweaty hands your resistance can be quite low. However, even if you are a bigger resistance and only 1% of the current goes through you that can still be enough to kill you. It only takes a few milliamps through your heart at the wrong time to kill you.
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