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Old 11-02-2012, 07:08 PM   #1
Glimpsed.AM
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Changing modes in a song?

When would be an appropriate time to do this? I'll list an example using the Harmonic Minor and Spanish Phrygian scales

I'm in a death metal band, and I have some riffs written out in Harmonic Minor and a few riffs written out in Phrygian Dominant. I'm tuned to Drop B, so I usually stick with the key of B. So this song I've been writing starts out with a few riffs using the Harmonic Minor scale, so how would I go about transferring over to Phrygian Dominant? The riffs I have written all fit with the overall feeling of the song, but I want to figure out how to bridge them together to get a blend of that Spanish and Middle Eastern sound.

So here are also some things I need clarified:

- The only difference I see is that Phrygian Dominant has a major third and Harmonic Minor has a Minor third, so would that make it easier to switch modes?

- How would context factor in to changing to a different mode?

- Is there some sort of rule or method for changing modes in a song? Like for a certain riff, you would play that Major Third instead of the Minor Third to switch?


Thanks for any input!


EDIT: Also, I apologize if there was already another thread on this matter. I wasn't sure if my situation would be any different since the two scales only have a 1 note difference.

Last edited by Glimpsed.AM : 11-02-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:18 PM   #2
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Learn actual theory and all will become clear?

I see so many questionable statements I don't really know where to begin. Let's start with "do you know how to build chords?"
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:24 PM   #3
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I'm going to make a general statement but judging by your tuning and genre, you are not truely using modes.

Second, if you want to "bridge" them together. Play the chord that is mostly harmonic with the notes being played. That's the basic way of doing it.

If you know how modes work, in a jazz context (The best way I can refer to it, I'm not a Jazz guitarist, nor heavily in Jazz so this might not be 100% correct), If you are playing in the key of B, you'd use B Phygrian Dominant, over the correct chord. Analyze the intervals in B Phygrian Dominant, and you'll know what chord to use. This will properly be fairly easy though since you are probably using power chords. If you can't do it that way, treat the notes in Phygrian Dominant that are not related to the B major as if they were just accidentals and don't hang on them. Simple yes? Now wait for a more intelligent response from Aeolianwolf for the politically correct way to do it.
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:24 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z4twenny
Learn actual theory and all will become clear?


</thread>

you have a lot of flaws in your understanding of theory, TS, and they're such that even if we were to answer your questions, you wouldn't really have the fundamental requisites to understand and make sense of it.

if you don't want to be bothered doing that, then forget knowing theory, forget this "phrygian dominant" stuff, and just guess-and-check until your ear becomes accustomed to the sounds.
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:29 PM   #5
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There isn't that much difference between the harmonic minor scale, and the Phrygian dominant.

That said, you do have to observe the b2nd, which gives Phrygian its flavor.

In its basic state, Phrygian dominant harmonizes by way of the"Aldalusian cadence", or I, II, III, iv. Much different resolutions from V7, i, in the minor keys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_cadence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_mode Phrygian dominant

And a list of pop songs in the Andalusian cadence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_cadence
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
</thread>

you have a lot of flaws in your understanding of theory, TS, and they're such that even if we were to answer your questions, you wouldn't really have the fundamental requisites to understand and make sense of it.

if you don't want to be bothered doing that, then forget knowing theory, forget this "phrygian dominant" stuff, and just guess-and-check until your ear becomes accustomed to the sounds.


Lmao. Well TS, disregard my last statement. It seems AeolianWolf isn't going to give you an answer, but make you figure it out yourself by learning theory. I don't blame him
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
if you don't want to be bothered doing that, then forget knowing theory, forget this "phrygian dominant" stuff, and just guess-and-check until your ear becomes accustomed to the sounds.

really this, we're not saying this to dissuade you just to make a point that somewhere along the way you got lost and didn't realize it. i'd recommend getting music theory for dummies (i keep a copy around at all times for reference) its pretty painless and if you do the exercises you can really start learning your stuff.

the smart-ass side of me would tell you to bridge the 2 with a riff that ends on F#
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z4twenny
really this, we're not saying this to dissuade you just to make a point that somewhere along the way you got lost and didn't realize it. i'd recommend getting music theory for dummies (i keep a copy around at all times for reference) its pretty painless and if you do the exercises you can really start learning your stuff.

the smart-ass side of me would tell you to bridge the 2 with a riff that ends on F#


I appreciate all the replies, and I already know that my knowledge of theory has a lot of flaws, because I've only started learning theory recently. I've noticed that I started a habit of asking questions regarding things that are too advanced for my understanding, simply because of curiosity. I figured I'd ask anyway though, because maybe when I got around to learning more advanced stuff, that I would be able to recall this later on and things would become a bit more clear.

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Old 11-02-2012, 07:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimpsed.AM
I appreciate all the replies, and I already know that my knowledge of theory has a lot of flaws, because I've only started learning theory recently. I've noticed that I started a habit of asking questions regarding things that are too advanced for my understanding, simply because of curiosity. I figured I'd ask anyway though, because maybe when I got around to learning more advanced stuff, that I would be able to recall this later on.


Don't even worry about the "advanced" stuff yet. You'll only confuse yourself. Master your basics first. If you don't have a solid foundation, later it'll collaspe. Just like building a skyscrapper without a proper foundation.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:14 PM   #10
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Well I'd help you out, but I don't know either, and since I really only use one mode, the aeolian mode(or natural minor scale). I would like to know how much theory some of you know though, that is actually used in popular rock, (no not pop, I mean stuff like rock you like a hurricane, well known rock songs). And tell me, how much of it actually sounds good?
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightdark
Well I'd help you out, but I don't know either, and since I really only use one mode, the aeolian mode(or natural minor scale). I would like to know how much theory some of you know though, that is actually used in popular rock, (no not pop, I mean stuff like rock you like a hurricane, well known rock songs). And tell me, how much of it actually sounds good?


You are not using the Aeolian mode, you're using just a Natural Minor Scale.

In the context of Pop. Rock, it isn't that challenging theory wise. Just power chords and major and minor scales basically. The occasional accidental here and there.

You need to build on your theory skills first. It sounds like you don't know any basics. You should build a solid foundation first too, before continuing.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xter
You are not using the Aeolian mode, you're using just a Natural Minor Scale.

In the context of Pop. Rock, it isn't that challenging theory wise. Just power chords and major and minor scales basically. The occasional accidental here and there.

You need to build on your theory skills first. It sounds like you don't know any basics. You should build a solid foundation first too, before continuing.




So your saying that if I am playing a chord progression that involves A7sus4b6 That it's not in A natural minor, ( yes I do know that for it to be a true Aeolian mode the key would have to be c major.) But what I'm trying to say is that if your just using the same notes but resolving to the root note which would be C( if we were in the key of c) why complicate things and just say I'm playing in this form of the C major scale hmm?

And read the parentheses, cause I don't think you did last time.

Last edited by lightdark : 11-02-2012 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightdark
So your saying that if I am playing a chord progression that involves A7sus4b6 That it's not in A natural minor, ( yes I do know that for it to be a true Aeolian mode the key would have to be c major.) But what I'm trying to say is that if your just using the same notes but resolving to the root note which would be C( if we were in the key of c) why complicate things and just say I'm playing in this form of the C major scale hmm?

And read the parentheses, cause I don't think you did last time.


You said well known rock songs like rock you like a hurricane. That is the basics of that song pretty much. I'm not looking it up, nor am I going to bother. I heard it before and it's just power chords basically.

There's two things, using modes in the classical concept (long dead) and using modes in a Jazz context. If you play a C Aeolian Scale while over that chord (A7sus4b6), you're using modes in a Jazz concept. It's not really modal, but in today's context, it is, but only over that chord. And you're complicating. Can you make a vamp. for C Aeolian? Do this and you'll have proven you know your theory. Besides that, if you wank off with a C Aeolian scale over a chord progression, it's not modal. It's more easily defined as using accidentals.

When you understand the harmony's function compared to the melody, you'll understand what modes are and what they're used for. Jazz is the best example of using this context, not only do you have to be technically excellent, but also know your theory to a dime.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:34 PM   #14
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well i can't say i didn't know this was coming

doesn't numb the pain, though
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:40 PM   #15
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Okay, a complete modal vamp, here you go. We'll start out with a C7add6 leading into an A7sus4 going to E7sus4 back into the C7add6. hows that for a modal vamp. I've made other modal vamps to, ones that I'd like to put on here to listen to, but as of yet, I don't have a program that will allow me to change the files into and mp3 file.(no, no Itunes for me.)

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Old 11-02-2012, 09:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Hail
well i can't say i didn't know this was coming

doesn't numb the pain, though


I know, hold it there. Soon the world will be rid of this modal stuff.

Whenever that new system is invented...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightdark
Okay, a complete modal vamp, here you go. We'll start out with a C7add6 leading into an A7sus4 going to E7sus4 back into the C7add6. hows that for a modal vamp.


Congrats. You know your theory apperantely. Now why are you asking about applying Theory to Pop. Rock song like "Rock you like a Hurricane"?
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:55 PM   #17
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I know, hold it there. Soon the world will be rid of this modal stuff.

Whenever that new system is invented...


why can't we have people bitching about writing hot metal licks with serialism

at least it'd be something new
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightdark
Okay, a complete modal vamp, here you go. We'll start out with a C7add6 leading into an A7sus4 going to E7sus4 back into the C7add6. hows that for a modal vamp. I've made other modal vamps to, ones that I'd like to put on here to listen to, but as of yet, I don't have a program that will allow me to change the files into and mp3 file.(no, no Itunes for me.)

so which mode is

A B C C# D E F G G#

?

or are you assuming a different mode over each chord?
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
why can't we have people bitching about writing hot metal licks with serialism

at least it'd be something new


Because people like the word "Modes". It sounds powerful, it's plural so it sounds like many, and people make it seem like the alpha male of music.

They only bitch about it because they want to seem like many alpha males combined into one.

...It's just a gimmick folks...
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:00 PM   #20
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. Besides that, if you wank off with a C Aeolian scale over a chord progression, it's not modal. It's more easily defined as using accidentals. .



So have you tried that modal progression I've made, I believe an apology is in order.(for the wanking comment.)
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