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Old 11-07-2012, 03:09 PM   #81
tubetime86
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Well I meant he doesn't use them on stage. If no one did then Zakk would be the pinnacle of pro MG use... But someone does; Wayne Static. His tone is garbage and very reminiscent of his last name... But he is significantly more successful than me so apparently he's doing something right.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:12 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetime86
Well I meant he doesn't use them on stage. If no one did then Zakk would be the pinnacle of pro MG use... But someone does; Wayne Static. His tone is garbage and very reminiscent of his last name... But he is significantly more successful than me so apparently he's doing something right.


What did he do right? The place and the time?
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:06 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by terribleguitar
Is that some kind of a joke?!


i know i am a corksniffer, and i have run into people who just LOVE LOVE LOVE their frontman or spider. whatever floats their boat. i am actually a little jealous of them cuz their 300 dollar amp makes them happier than all my vintage and boutique amps do.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:25 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by trashedlostfdup
ianthefox- i find this quite funny as that in every wattage thread you say "i have a 100 watt amp and my dad has a 50 watt amp" and they sound good quiet. or something along the lines.

*Snip*
Well to us, at low volumes they they sound great. To my 40yo hypothetical neighbor who hates all music but Christmas carols and works night shift therefore sleeps all day, it doesn't. In fact, it sounds good at NO volume, in other words in operant.

Even at non-loud settings, the sound of tube amps slices through walls and floors like razors. I don't know the science, but I just know it works that way. If you don't believe me, set a Fender Frontman and a Deluxe Reverb next to each other at roughly equal volume, link via A/B selector, and play guitar from the other room. Which do you hear more of?

And that's just clean. Try a Randall RG100es vs. a JCM800, or Ampeg VH140c vs. 5150 (paired based on voicing similarities); it's worse with distorted tones.


As for building an ISO cab, I think it would be more worth it to just build a pre-made one. I'm not good with woodwork, and by the time I've moved out I won't have anyone to help with the construction.

The Randall one I'm liking a bit, particularly because the square inches on the inside is close, if not more of that of a standard Mesa 2x12. Only disadvantage is the lack of overtones from a second speaker working with the first.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside Octaves
Some people... you just can't get to accept something. Try getting a 90 year old to listen to a CD... most just are hopelessly addicted to their vinyls. Now try to get the same person to listen to a .flac or .wav file from a pc... LMAO.
Could it be because it's a fact that vinyl records actually do reproduce sound better than digital technology? Try listening to it on a decent system, not some $10 Altec speakers you bought from Walmart. And no, Bose isn't a decent system either.

Why do you think all albums that are recognized for their production are albums that are recorded on R2R tapes? Those are even more sonically accurate than vinyl.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside Octaves
I support you, OP, but I do have to say that if you can tell a difference between your beloved tube amps and modern, higher end, software based amps and effects... especially on a recording that you play back on something other than your amp's speakers.... and even more-so if you have it in a mix.... then you sir are only deluding yourself.
Again, it's because I'm listening to my music on a decent system, not $10 Walmart speakers. I can hear it, and if you can't, well it sucks to be tone deaf now, doesn't it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside Octaves
Don't get me wrong... there is something about a tube-amp. They do have a more lively tone to them. You just can't get that sparkle from digital amps on the cleans. BUT, for EVERYTHING else, from the mildest amounts of drive onto full-boar double-drop G (LMAO) UBER-metal-fire-breathing-Balrog of Morgoth distortion/overdrive... well the better modelers like Guitar Rig 5 and what not will match any tube amp out there... period.... especially for the latter... I dare you to show us a quality recording that shows side by side how I and the others are wrong... oh so wrong. This is your only option for truly "silent" recording outside a soundproofed room.
The first part I agree with.

Bolded is bullshit. Especially since you mentioned Guitar Rig.

For one, I don't play generic Djenty brootz-core crap. Actually, I don't know what exactly it is that I play. I have my own style of playing which I'd describe as classic progressive mixed with thrash metal, and some modern, all in one style. It's kinda my own style. There are many, MANY passages in mall of my songs where I change my picking intensity, and blend a clean tone over top to make a magical sound for arpeggiated chords. And to add, I don't even use that much drive. Always, it's very rolled back, I like to capture the "voice" of the guitar with my tone.

And don't even get me started on leads. Seriously, with digital modelers you can forget about dynamics. I'm starting to develop my lead style similar to this. Only a tube amp does the job perfectly for that style. I should also mention that many of my songs contain long passages where the lead guitar is the focus.


Modeling software doesn't give a fuck what you throw at them. How hard you pick, how soft you pick, what pickups, what wood, etc. It's all just gonna spit out the same staticy instantaneous distorted notes, no matter what the guitar.

Think I'm bullshitting? This was recorded with Guitar Rig, according to the uploader. Check the guitar he's using.

My dad's Epiphone hollowbody sounds exactly the same as my Charvel, which sounds exactly the same as my Strat, when I play through the Poulin plugins (very similar to guitar rig). Hell, the middle and bridge pickups on my Strat sound identical, and the bridge is a humbucker!

Maybe it doesn't matter if you're just playing nothing but "CHUGACHUGADJENTDJENTDONGDONGDJENTBREAKDOWN" shit, but that's not what I'm playing at all.


Now other decent modelers I've played, including various POD's and Elevenrack, are slightly better with the touch-sensitivity, but still do not bring out the qualities in each of my guitars. With tubes, they do.

Of course, if you're deaf as shit or own $10 Walmart speakers, it doesn't matter. But I hear the difference.

I feel like I've said this all before. Hmm, where?.... Oh, that's right:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Myself
They sound close, sure, but they still don't act or feel like tube amps. There's still something lacking with them in a mix that only tube amps have. They're not organic, and they don't react as well to your playing or pickups.
Shows how much you actually read my first post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside Octaves
But as for not so silent, but not full-bore volume recording:

Yea, so far you're on the right track. Though obviously the smaller the "box" (read: room) the worse the sound, then again same goes for the other direction. Make sure to figure out what kinda sound you're going for in your recording future... too big is bad and too small is bad (with exceptions of course). You don't want to record something that shouldn't have much or any reverb in a cathedral, nore should you record something that should have reverb or what not in a box just a bit larger than the amp+mic lol.
That's why I'm considering the Randall Iso, as it's close to equal square length on the inside as a standard V30 Mesa cab, if that even matters at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside Octaves
My logic in all of this:

Go ahead OP, and don't follow advice... we're doing that same thing in telling you to go with an Digital Interface for the pc or mac. You WILL get the exact same tones once you mix it into the rest of what you're music is doing.... minus a few types of clean sounds... then again guitar rig 5's van 51 is plenty tube'y. It isn't exact, but damn if you could tell the difference in a song or piece between what it's modeled after and the software version...
I'm not going to follow the Digital Modeler advice because it DOESN'T SOLVE MY PROBLEM. It sends me in the path I don't want. Just because you can't hear the differences between tube and digital, doesn't mean my preferences are wrong.

And Guitar Rig doesn't sound "just like" a tube amp. It sounds like fizzy staticy fake crap. I've played with Poulin for hours with various settings and impulses and no matter how tube-like it got, I couldn't get rid of that distinctive, sterile, processed, un-dynamic sound.

Even recordings with Pod Farm that sound almost tube like have that distinctive digital sound to them.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:31 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Arby911
Would you and the OP like to pick up a little cash, for gear or whatever?

I'm thinking I could go to Kemper and/or Fractal Audio and get them to put up $10,000 or so for a blind test, say 10 clips from different guitarists, the only difference being that one set is run through the actual tube amp and the other is run through their modeling gear.

You put up your 10K against theirs, if you can accurately pick out the modeled clips, you win.

If not they donate your 10k to charity.

You up for that?
It all depends on what their playing.


If it's all nonstop noisy tremelo picked death metal, OTT processed shitty metalcore or deathcore, or some Djenty crap, I probably wouldn't notice.

If the guitar is the center of attention, dynamics in playing are being used, as well as varying lead techniques, I'd most likely notice a difference.


Now the Kemper seems like it could fool somebody based on the clips I've heard (much more accurate than the Axe), but if I were to end up in the situation of living in a shitty apartment next to intolerant neighbors, do you think I'd be economically able to purchase a Kemper? Absolutely not.



Now what just recently did occur to me is that I'm also a vocalist, and record vocals. If I move into a shitty apartment, I'm going to need a vocal booth or some strong isolation to isolate my loud singing (and especially my harsh vocals) anyway.

What do you all think would work better for isolating an amp? Building or purchasing a decent Isolation booth, and sticking my cab in there? Or buying/building a set of isolation cabinets?

Either options would cost the same, if not less than either of the top modelers (Axe II or Kemper).
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:34 PM   #86
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I hate to rain on anyones parade here.... Keep in mind what we search for in tone on our guitars might get mostly lost in the band situation. Add a lower volume guitar on the total mix and no one would be the wiser.

Remembers Olas video with the MG? Perfect example.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:37 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetime86
When someone says 'I have a Marshall MG and want a new overdrive pedal' what do we say? We say 'you need a new amp.' Do they like hearing that? Of course not. Is it the correct answer? Yes. I'm not saying that's what this situation boils down to, but it just might be.


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Ian, what I think it boils down to is that yes, we all know that a fullbore tube amp completely dominates a fullbore modeler.

But at the volumes you're restricted to, a modeler will sound better than a tube amp running at volumes that don't even get the tubes warm. As was stated a while ago, iso cabs are not 100% silent, which you claim to need.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:57 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R45VT
I hate to rain on anyones parade here.... Keep in mind what we search for in tone on our guitars might get mostly lost in the band situation. Add a lower volume guitar on the total mix and no one would be the wiser.

Remembers Olas video with the MG? Perfect example.
Regarding Ola's video, again: If listened to on cheap laptop speakers, you can't hear the difference.

When I play it on my room stereo I hear all the difference. It sounds similar to my Fender Stage 100 when I tried recording it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Offworld92
Ian, what I think it boils down to is that yes, we all know that a fullbore tube amp completely dominates a fullbore modeler.

But at the volumes you're restricted to, a modeler will sound better than a tube amp running at volumes that don't even get the tubes warm. As was stated a while ago, iso cabs are not 100% silent, which you claim to need.
100% quiet was really an exaggeration. At least enough to where the direct sound from the speaker won't penetrate paper thin walls.

I should also note that my amp sounds the best (with V30's at least) recorded when the master volume is around 3, sometimes 4. I'm not cranking it to the max.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:02 PM   #89
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You can't tell the difference between different guitars when running through a modeler, but claim to be able to hear the difference between a tube amp and an axe fx?

I guess you're using some kind of 10 dollar walmart speaker setup. Ian, you need to get a decent speaker system before you get anything else. And no, Bose is not decent. You need to really get some good stuff.

That's my advice.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:52 PM   #90
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I couldn't tell the difference. The actual SLO100 sounds a bit brighter, but that could be easily adjusted on the Kemper.

Honestly, I don't know exactly how profiling amps work, but I refuse to believe that they can't sound 100% exactly like a tube amplifier. Maybe the lower end modelers don't, and maybe the high end ones don't either. But I think it's a bit naive to say digital/solid-state will never sound like tubes.

I think there might be some bias in regards to tubes. I understand that they often sound better, but digital technology is fairly new (right?). It seems to me that tube-purists who shut out all solid-state/digital amplifiers are hipsters obsessed with their vintage tubes. I'm really interested in whether they would be able to pass a legitimate, unbiased test.

I forget where I was going with this... but yeah. With the right technology, tubes will become obsolete. Except for the aforementioned hipsters who will continue purchasing them.

Maybe "tubes" are an idealized concept that people have been pressured into believing? Maybe not?

Nothing against hipsters, but these are my thoughts.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:04 PM   #91
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:08 PM   #92
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:12 PM   #93
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Uh oh. Cats on amps in this thread as well...
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:18 PM   #94
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10 dollar system? LMAO!

Behringer BG412s 4x12 top slant and the v-ampire LX1200H for the (apparent) preamp'ed aux channel... which runs the sound coming from my Line 6 and guitar rig 5. I've compared fender tube amps, and other such amps to this thing using various models (some even on the v-ampire itself)... The only thing this thing can't do is push the volume the same way a tube amp can because it's solid state... and a bit cheap at that.

This is not some 10 dollar walmart system. True it's no botique, or "quality" tube amp... but it can reproduce most any sound one wants with very little in the way of that old world digital crap... even though it's digital (the new age of digital modeling is just ... jaw droppingly real!)



I just want you and others like you to realize that digital amp, cab, and fx modeling has finally achieved the point at which you can't tell much if any difference at all with the mid-range systems... the higher end stuff is touted as not having any difference. I myself via the videos can't tell, even when played through my 4x12 or the 75 watt 5.1 I have set up .



10 dollar walmart speakers... ROFLMAO!!!!



As far as not bringing out the quality of an instrument? hehe... My friend, that example you showed was someone that doesn't know what they are doing. A decent setup, and with some tweaking... you can get it to bring out the best of a guitar. Just like a tube amp... if you don't know what you're doing a tube amp can do just what you were saying about the modelers. It can suck the life out of it. it's all in knowing how to set it all up. Treat the modeler like a real world situation and tweak accordingly, and do the other part of modeling setups and make sure your front end iss taken care of with proper preamping and also make sure the output is taken care of properly and vwala, you got warm rich tones that can make proper use of a guitar. I've played a few guitars through my current setup, and each guitar was vastly different because of... not my modeling setup (amps , fx , etc)... but because each instrument is different.

I play around with an exotic style, sort of, with bluesy under-pinnings. And I'm just a novice. I'm sure with someone who REALLY knows how to setup an amp and fx, I could sound JUST like stevie ray if I had a good strat and this system! Or I could sound like BB, or Satch, Vai... well not JUST like as I don't have their fingers or musicianship but you get my point.

I've had VERY tube-y tones! But I tend to go for a more smooth, rounded feel and sound.

And all with this "cheaper" system...
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:18 PM   #95
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Uh oh. Cats on amps in this thread as well...


it's about getting to that point. this has slowly taken a turn into a 'you should have the same opinion as me' thread and i don't see much more to be gained. so a bunch of posters are gonna get butt sore cuz TS doesn't wanna use modeling.

like, i use modeling and it works great for me on the road when i don't wanna lug an amp around, but does that mean the TS should feel the same way? should people just harass him til he gets a kemper?

opinions are getting crazier and more aggressive, plus the BS is almost ankle deep now. people are just making arguments that don't even make logical sense anymore.

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Old 11-07-2012, 06:23 PM   #96
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I did find the Kemper profile a bit fuzzier, but either way that probably is the closest tone match I've heard from a digital device. At least in warmth; for the length I watched the guy he didn't seem to change his picking dynamics that much. I'd have to play one in person to judge.


Either way, for way under $2000 I could get a used iso booth and mic up what I have now, which I'd most likely need if I were to be recording vocals in the same situation. Question is, exactly how reductive are they in terms of sound (dB)?
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:24 PM   #97
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I just think with a full band mix and not a single guitar track the differences will be very slight.

If he can't afford an expensive unit he believes is crap than so be it. ISO box it is.

Simple.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:27 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Outside Octaves
10 dollar system? LMAO!

Behringer BG412s 4x12 top slant and the v-ampire LX1200H for the (apparent) preamp'ed aux channel... which runs the sound coming from my Line 6 and guitar rig 5. I've compared fender tube amps, and other such amps to this thing using various models (some even on the v-ampire itself)... The only thing this thing can't do is push the volume the same way a tube amp can because it's solid state... and a bit cheap at that.

This is not some 10 dollar walmart system. True it's no botique, or "quality" tube amp... but it can reproduce most any sound one wants with very little in the way of that old world digital crap... even though it's digital (the new age of digital modeling is just ... jaw droppingly real!)



I just want you and others like you to realize that digital amp, cab, and fx modeling has finally achieved the point at which you can't tell much if any difference at all with the mid-range systems... the higher end stuff is touted as not having any difference. I myself via the videos can't tell, even when played through my 4x12 or the 75 watt 5.1 I have set up .
Behringer...



Yeah, you're super deaf.


Quote:
Originally Posted by R45VT
I just think with a full band mix and not a single guitar track the differences will be very slight.

If he can't afford an expensive unit he believes is crap than so be it. ISO box it is.

Simple.
When did I say the Kemper or Axe's were crap? They just don't do what I want them do do.

I wouldn't buy a Marshall JCM800, as that wouldn't give me the tones I want. Do you think I believe that's crap?
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why did ian cross the road?

his dick was stuck in the chicken

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Old 11-07-2012, 06:31 PM   #99
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I think everyone is missing the obvious: don't record in a shitty paper thin wall apartment, dummy.

If you're that bothered about getting your tone so perfect that you can tell the difference between the best modelling amp and the actual thing, surely its worth renting a studio or even using somebodies garage.

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Old 11-07-2012, 06:31 PM   #100
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there was a legit thread about lightbulbs in amps?

how'd it turn out?
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