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Old 11-08-2012, 09:11 PM   #21
W4RP1G
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How do the Behringer TRUTHs compare to the KRK Rokit series? I've noticed many youtube guitarists use Rokit monitors, and the 5" Rokits are much cheaper than the B2031As.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:14 PM   #22
axemanchris
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This is not from experience with the KRK's, but when you combine the words "cheaper than Behringer" with 5" speakers, I'd get worried.

I'm not dissing Behringer. I'll stand by them long before a lot of people. I still use some of their stuff, though I have outgrown most of it. You can't beat them in the "bang for the buck" department, but if you're willing to spend some, you can certainly beat them.

I'd be wary of any monitor with less than a 6" speaker. A 5" speaker just starts getting too physically small to produce lower frequencies. Even a 6" driver is pushing it a bit. Ideally, I'd want an 8" driver, but my room is way too small for a speaker like that.

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Old 11-08-2012, 10:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by W4RP1G
How do the Behringer TRUTHs compare to the KRK Rokit series? I've noticed many youtube guitarists use Rokit monitors, and the 5" Rokits are much cheaper than the B2031As.

I have the KRK Rokit 6's - I prefer them to the Truth's, but I've learnt these speakers so I would do. I wouldn't advise going for the 5's unless you're in a very small room; the 6's and 8's hype the low end a bit, but it's more than manageable and I think half the problem is their placement and the room people put them in too.

With either pair I don't think you're going wrong, compared to the majority of the other monitors out there in the price range, but a lot of it comes down to your listening environment and learning to mix on the speakers. NS-10's are not, and were not, the flattest or best-sounding monitors available to pro studios in their hey-day, but they got huge because people encountered them a lot and grew up learning to mix on them (ignoring the advantages of a sealed-box/infinite baffle design for midrange tim-domain response, vs ported speaker enclosures) and are still quite common today, despite major advances in loudspeaker technology.

Bottom line: we will advise you to get your environment right, and choose speakers as accurate as you can afford, but a great engineer could spend a few months with a low end set of monitors and still produce amazing results because they listen to their environment and 'learn the environment', both by playing reference material and seeing how the sound reacts to changes they make to the mix. If you can learn your speakers/room, you can get away with entry/mid-level monitors for a long time before you will benefit from an upgrade, as long as you take the time to acknowledge and suss out the innaccuracies in your mix environment (whether that is the speakers, standing waves, bass buildup in the corners or high-end reflection from the walls).
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:31 PM   #24
W4RP1G
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Damn, this is more complicated than I thought. I will be using these in my living room of my apartment, probably at a relatively low volume. So you guys are basically saying that I can't go wrong with Rokits or Truths as long as the speakers are at least 6"? Would going for an 8" speaker be pointless if I don't intend to crank up the volume?
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:44 PM   #25
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It's hard to say without seeing the room. Here's an idea, if you have a semi-decent hi-fi with speakers that produce a decent amount of low end, set it up on a table in the approximate area you expect to place the monitors when you get them. Now play some music on the system, at a volume you would expect to mix on.

Ignoring the fact that the speakers are going to be uneven in frequency response, and most likely boosted in the bass and highs ('smile' EQ, we call this) do you notice any dodgy, boomy resonances on particular notes that seem louder than the others? Do you hear any nasty, honky texture to the sound in the upper mids/treble? Basically, you can already get a vague idea if this position and size of speaker is going to pose you problems that will need correcting (either by getting smaller woofers, changing the placement of the speakers, or putting up some treatment against the reflections/build-ups).

So if you already encounter a lot of problems here, where songs you are used to listening to (always use songs you're very familiar with... in fact, for future reference it's a good idea to make a CD/playlist of a few songs you know inside-out, as a reference list for critical listening) you can probably surmise that you will get similar problems if you buy any monitors of a similar size driver, and place them in the same place.


I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with getting the 8's, but they cost more for little-to-no gain if you're in a room that won't benefit from the extended frequency response. The only benefit from the KRK 8's over the 6's is a flatter frequency response (±0.5dB as opposed to ±1dB across the stated ranges, I think it is for them). If you extend the low end though to an area that is arguably less important outside of club mixes and hip-hop, you're increasing the likelihood of problems in the low end considerably.

If you have a large living room, by all means give it a try, but make sure you keep the receipt in case you have to return them for a smaller pair. And like I said earlier, I mix on the 6's and have no problem with them. If you listen to 'Hollow Ground' in my profile, that's actually quite an old mix (I'm referencing a mix as I didn't have any involvement in the tracking; the audio files are freely available on the another site's recording forum) but I heard it recently in a venue I did the live sound for as a favour to the promoter, and if I can say so myself it sounded heavy as fuck with a massive, pumping low end that quite surprised me, as I mixed it for that effect but obviously don't get the same picture at home as I do in front of a big PA. Still, the lack of sub-bass at home didn't create any problems with translation to the bigger system.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:41 AM   #26
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Unfortunately, I don't have a decent sound system to test things out, I just use my TV, or my cheap Logitech computer speakers. Here's my living room and how the speakers would be setup:

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Old 11-09-2012, 12:57 AM   #27
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Ok, well perhaps the Logitech speakers can take that role, albeit not as effectively. I forgot to mention earlier, btw, that if you feel any of this is overwhelming don't hesitate to ask for an explanation of anything we say - we're happy to help if it doesn't fall on deaf ears

Anyway, the first thing that concerns me from the diagram is the placement of the speakers. Ideally, if you have a rectangular/'cuboid' room you should place the speakers towards a shorter wall, so they're fire down the length of the room and reduce any issues with sound bouncing off the far wall considerably. This also helps with standing waves as well.

I am a bit busy to alter the diagram for you at the moment, maybe Chris, Matrix or another regular will be on soon and can do so instead, but I would suggest you have the speakers against the shorter wall to the left, and if space allows - about 1 foot in from the wall minimum (i.e the back of the speakers aren't pushed against the wall, which increases the buildup of bass frequencies significantly).

Will you be using dedicated speaker stands, or placing them on a desk? Stands isn't a problem as you can move them forward etc. but on a desk you will possibly need to get some dense foam or solid granite slabs/roofing slate to place the monitors on, to reduce the transmission into the desk (which could be prone to resonate at certain frequencies/harmonics and would be very annoying and hard to work with).
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:01 AM   #28
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Another vote here for the Behringer Truth series.

I've got a pair of 3030As that I picked up for £160, boxed in mint condition with 6 months left on the warranty, greatest bargain ever. Kevlar woofers and ribbon tweeters for the kind of money is insane - and they really do have the performance to match the specs.


If you're after a cheap brand new set of speakers for mixing you could do worse than the M-Audio AV40 for around £100, though personally I'd still much rather go used.

The ESI nEAR 05s are excellent little monitors and worth picking up if you see them used.


I avoid KRK Rokits like the plague, can't stand em. Hyped sounding, poor midrange, and mixes translate badly. Some people have a lot of success with them, but I don't think they're a wise choice.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:45 AM   #29
axemanchris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
Anyway, the first thing that concerns me from the diagram is the placement of the speakers. Ideally, if you have a rectangular/'cuboid' room you should place the speakers towards a shorter wall, so they're fire down the length of the room and reduce any issues with sound bouncing off the far wall considerably. This also helps with standing waves as well.

I am a bit busy to alter the diagram for you at the moment, maybe Chris, Matrix or another regular will be on soon and can do so instead, but I would suggest you have the speakers against the shorter wall to the left, and if space allows - about 1 foot in from the wall minimum (i.e the back of the speakers aren't pushed against the wall, which increases the buildup of bass frequencies significantly).


No need to re-do the diagram. You explained this perfectly well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
Will you be using dedicated speaker stands, or placing them on a desk? Stands isn't a problem as you can move them forward etc. but on a desk you will possibly need to get some dense foam or solid granite slabs/roofing slate to place the monitors on, to reduce the transmission into the desk (which could be prone to resonate at certain frequencies/harmonics and would be very annoying and hard to work with).


Yes, it is amazing how much the mere "sitting speakers on a desk" influences the sound. The desk resonates!

Now, wouldn't granite or roofing slate just carry vibrations right through to the desk? I mean, concrete resonates.

I'd think that you'd want something absorbent that won't vibrate along with the speakers and carry those vibrations through to the desk.

I built my own stands very inexpensively.

Basically they go like this:

speaker (monitor)
rigid fiberglass insulation
1/2" plywood
construction block
construction block
1/2" plywood
screws (put through the plywood from above) so the stands rest on four tiny points

then wrapped the whole thing in a black cloth "skirt" I made from stuff on sale at the fabric place.

The less contact the speakers make with anything that will otherwise resonate (including the floor), the better.

You can see one of them pretty well here:



CT
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Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:42 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
No need to re-do the diagram. You explained this perfectly well.

Danke schön


Quote:
Yes, it is amazing how much the mere "sitting speakers on a desk" influences the sound. The desk resonates!

Now, wouldn't granite or roofing slate just carry vibrations right through to the desk? I mean, concrete resonates.

I'd think that you'd want something absorbent that won't vibrate along with the speakers and carry those vibrations through to the desk.

Well, as you see with your stands the differing materials reduces the transmission of vibrations from one to another (as the granite/slate won't resonate anywhere near as much as the wood of a desk, and it will be in different harmonics/frequencies) so I would expect the slab to act as a form of barrier. Of course a layer of dense foam between two slate tiles or thin granite slabs would work better though isn't always that stable.

Quote:
I built my own stands very inexpensively.

Basically they go like this:

speaker (monitor)
rigid fiberglass insulation
1/2" plywood
construction block
construction block
1/2" plywood
screws (put through the plywood from above) so the stands rest on four tiny points

then wrapped the whole thing in a black cloth "skirt" I made from stuff on sale at the fabric place.

The less contact the speakers make with anything that will otherwise resonate (including the floor), the better.

You can see one of them pretty well here:



CT

Your stands are great, if I had space for that I'd probably do something similar although I manage well enough with my speaker stands anyway (desk is too small even if I wanted to place them on there, but they'd be too low anyway if they were on the desk - at least I have them at ear-height on these stands).

What you've mentioned is obviously very effective for reducing the transmission, although I guess the amount of space he has on the desk, and the stability of it all (depending on the dimensions of the various materials), may be a factor to TS.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:45 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W4RP1G
Unfortunately, I don't have a decent sound system to test things out, I just use my TV, or my cheap Logitech computer speakers. Here's my living room and how the speakers would be setup:



Damn, that looks like my house, no joke. I've got my setup on the wall where the *******s at in the living room (well, sorta, hard to explain without pics).
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:24 PM   #32
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I haven't tried the Truths personally, but I have a set of Equator D5s that translate really nicely.

So, Truths or D5s.
also Chris dude that guitar is nice, I happen to have one too!
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:25 PM   #33
axemanchris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
...the granite/slate won't resonate anywhere near as much as the wood of a desk, and it will be in different harmonics/frequencies) so I would expect the slab to act as a form of barrier.


I was surprised to find out how much even concrete resonates. But true enough, not near as much as, say, a large wooden desktop, or a wooden bookshelf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
Your stands are great, if I had space for that I'd probably do something similar although I manage well enough with my speaker stands anyway (desk is too small even if I wanted to place them on there, but they'd be too low anyway if they were on the desk - at least I have them at ear-height on these stands).

What you've mentioned is obviously very effective for reducing the transmission, although I guess the amount of space he has on the desk, and the stability of it all (depending on the dimensions of the various materials), may be a factor to TS.


Thanks! Grand total - about $25. When I play my music, though, and put my hand on the floor right beside the screws that serve as little legs, I don't feel *anything.*

You do significant considerations. I had a desk that was fantastic - literally twice the size. And then when I "moved in" to the new room, I had to choose between a much smaller desk or placing my speakers on the desktop. This desk is 32" in a room that is only 8' wide. With the panels, the speaker stands, etc., it's a pretty cozy fit. haha

Stability is a potential issue. What you don't really see in the picture is that I have a closet in the corner just behind and to the right of the guitar in the picture. There is *just* enough room for the bifolds to open up and clear the speaker stand, which obviously doesn't leave a ton of room to walk between the speaker stand and the entrance to the closet. With the speakers sitting on fiberglass pads (rigid or not, they're not *that* rigid), it would be easy to bump one and knock it off kilter. I just store little things in there - cable baskets, guitar cases, etc.

I would guess, though, that with a room that is literally 4 times the size of my control room, he shouldn't have *that* much difficulty fitting a desk with a couple of speaker stands along the 14' wall. It just comes down to whether or not he wants to.

CT
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Quote:
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Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
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