11-10-2012, 10:31 AM
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#1 | |
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officialBOSS pedals hater
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Montreal
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New and used: The ethical debate!
I was just reading the "I want an amp to sound like Tremonti" thread and fell on something Blktiger0 said.
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Now, I really wanted to reply, but realized I was writing a super duper off topic reply. Basically, I am 100% on that. I personally work in the video games industry and I can see how pirating hurts it. I've worked with companies such as THQ, which is going down very low right now, and when you work with the people that are going to get laid off and in their offices, it doesn't feel great... But that is getting off-topic again. There are many reasons and blablabla. Basically, I just wanted to have a discussion about that. I happened to buy my most recent stuff used, but it was stuff that you could never find new anymore. Try finding a Marshall 6100lm new on the shelf. Obviously, sometimes, there are no other options. But it's kind of similar to the "Buy canadian" for twice as expensive as "Buy the same product made in China" (I'm in Canada). Does knowing you help your economy justify paying a premium? I know I always want the people who made the product I'm enjoying to receive my money, as a form of support. Which is why I never ever pirate video games, and which is why I buy my music as well. What about you guys? How do you feel about that issue? TL;DR: Buying used hurts the manufacturer by not giving them any money, and it hurts them economically. Is that enough to keep you from buying used? How do you feel about that? What justifies buying used VS buying new besides the price? (Note: this is just for a discussion, and I do hope I'm not starting a war, as we've all seen happen on here)
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My sig is clean. and my name's Thomas. Wanna see my rig? My band (Facebook) My band (Bandcamp, free EP) |
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11-10-2012, 10:43 AM
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#2 |
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I N T J
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Left Coast
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I'll buy new when/if I really wanted/needed it that immediately for whatever reason: unavailability of it Used, it's so good for the price, etc. The few instances I bought gear New were when I had a coupon and/or the item was specially priced and/or I had to have it immediately.
This also applies to food. 
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11-10-2012, 10:45 AM
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#3 |
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Please, call me Pig.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
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I guess the only thing that makes sense(for the manufacturer) is to make a product that is only as good as it's warranty, and then only offer the warranty to the original buyer. That might sound crazy or unethical itself, but it's already true for some things. For instance, I won't even consider buying a TV used anymore. It used to be a viable option, but LCD TVs are so much less durable than TVs used to be, and I've had several go out in the 4 years that I've owned one.
It's kind of sad that if a product is sturdy and reliable it actually hurts the company. But I guess the consumer creates those circumstances and the consumer pays for it as well. Last edited by W4RP1G : 11-10-2012 at 10:47 AM. |
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11-10-2012, 10:49 AM
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#4 | |
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officialBOSS pedals hater
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Montreal
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That makes some great sense, and it goes along with the video games analogy with season passes and stuff that registers with the first user of the game copy. I find it sucky though that it's a matter of warranty with guitars and amplifiers. Amps are reliable enough not to need a warranty, and for guitars, it's even more obvious, as they don't cover anything you can't fix yourself
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My sig is clean. and my name's Thomas. Wanna see my rig? My band (Facebook) My band (Bandcamp, free EP) |
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11-10-2012, 11:01 AM
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#5 | ||
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Not in any way advocating piracy but I have been known to go purchase a game and then immediately download a pirated version to avoid DRM. They kinda shoot themselves in a foot a bit with that one. Quote:
Get better TVs, We've had one for god knows how long and haven't had a single problem with it. The problem I see with buying stuff new is that they don't give us a good reason to do it. With a couple of exceptions, the music stores around me don't like me just going to try things out before I make a purchase. Even though I'm there enough to know I will make the purchase once I'm happy with my choice. There's a couple of places that are very keen to rip me off too. And then there's the 'Australia Tax' we get around here, What I get on the used market is about what I'd be paying for new in the US. Unpleasant customer experience + massive overpricing, really doesn't make me want to get new gear. |
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11-10-2012, 11:04 AM
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#6 | ||
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Josh
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Buying used isn't flushing your money out of the economy, it is simply putting it back into the hands of a consumer rather than that of a firm. Because of this, we see a higher amount of consumer spending in the economy - this is the spending that is helping other firms that could be completely irrelevant to the first product's industry, but either way still boosting the economy.
I could theorise that if it weren't for a used market, many people wouldn't be able to buy the goods they want anyway because of the problem of a price which is too high, and so might stop buying the goods they wanted all together. And so we would see firms actually not making that much more money. As well as this, the used market is a great way for firms to find out what old products they used to make to bring back in to production. For example, Fender reissue amps and vintage designed Gibson Les Paul's. Another great thing the used market is to firms is that it can be used to grow their popularity. If I find a TC electronic pedal going fairly cheap on Ebay I may go ahead and pick it up. If I really like it for reasons I cannot come to through watching a youtube demo, (e.g. build quality or a particularly well working sound in my chain) I may well go and buy other TC pedals that I can't find on Ebay, or perhaps my new likeness to their products will actually compel me to buy their pedals brand new - in the case of the Fanboy/girl.
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11-10-2012, 11:05 AM
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#7 |
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Please, call me Pig.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
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Well, they could make amps really crappy, but the problem with that is people rely heavily on their gear when they are playing live. The company with the more reliable be gear would obviously become the first choice for gigging musicians, and subsequently develop a reputation among other musicians that would increase sales.
As for guitars, I don't know how they could deal with that. Perhaps make the warranty more useful? Even then I don't think that would affect the used market very much. But I can't say I really feel for guitar manufacturers, they seem to throw more and more guitars out there every year so they must be making money at it. |
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11-10-2012, 11:13 AM
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#8 |
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Serving Knowledge
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Neither here nor there.
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Buying used versus new is a matter of economics. People will buy a product when the value of the item equals the value of their money. This can come down to perceived value. In other words, I really like that shiny, new amplifier, but I don't think it's worth x dollars. However, I find a used one for y dollars, which meets my perceived value of the product and I buy it.
One also must weigh the perceived value of a warranty against the cost of the merchandise. When I purchase online, I frequently find returned items, which are a few hundred less than a brand new product. Problem is, they often won't have a warranty and I won't buy them. Why? Because I'm betting the product may fail, leaving me with an expensive paper weight. On the other hand, I've purchased items on auction sites that were very expensive brand new, but much cheaper used. Why? Because the price offset was great enough that, if it did fail, I could still justify repairing it myself, or sending it out for repair. Along that same vein, I've also bought items from Musician's Friend that were returned as defective. I bought them at a huge discount, knowing that I could likely repair them. Darkflame mentioned that amps are reliable enough not to need a warranty. Not sure I'd agree with that. I bought a brand new Mesa Lonestar a few years back. The dealer had to order it, since he didn't have it in-stock - so it was never played in the store. Within a couple of weeks, a tube failed in it and Mesa sent me a replacement under warranty. Granted, it was an inexpensive tube, but still - the warranty covered it. Another example... My wife bought a Fender amp. We bought it brand new in the box. Got it home and it failed out-of-the-box. Warranty covered the replacement of the amp. |
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11-10-2012, 11:18 AM
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#9 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NSB, FL
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I agree that the manufacture doesn't make money on the used market. But many can not or will not pay the premium of new, others think new is the only way.
I like buying new gear when I can afford it, but my last few gear purchases have been used. An my next few purchases will also be used. I just can't justifuy spending $1500+ on a new head when I can get that same amp for $500-$700.
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2002 PRS CE22 197? Sanox Sound Creator LP clone (GFS Fat Pat) 2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4) Marshall JCM2000 DSL100 Krank 1980 Jr 20watt Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12) GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey Morley Bad Horsie 2 MXR Smart Gate |
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11-10-2012, 11:22 AM
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#10 |
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Ka-chow!
Join Date: Dec 2007
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When I buy a used amp or guitar, the seller is usually using that money to buy something else.
Maybe something used or new. Most of the guitar buying type people buy new. I learned that while working in a store. The average forum savvy used buyer is not in the majority of guitar players. I support the companies I like by recommending their products. Don't forget that when a given shopper is researching a purchase they may become one of the many lurkers here. They read our thoughts and posts and that does influence purchases of new products. That said, I buy new and used depending on the circumstance. |
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11-10-2012, 11:23 AM
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#11 |
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UG's Neil Young
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Part of the rights of owning something is the right to sell it for whatever someone will pay, thats why vintage gear can be sold for 10 times more than it's worth, it just the way free market works. If selling used items wasn't allowed then it would hurt the economy because no one would invest in physical product.
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11-10-2012, 11:26 AM
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#12 |
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Cheap Gear Enthusiast
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Orlando
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IMO there are zero moral issues involved with buying used. Nada, none, zip. There is no logic to support it. If anything consumption of resources by the more privileged inhabitants of this planet would be a moral issue if you wanted to consider it. And that issue supports the idea that buying used is more moral.
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11-10-2012, 11:31 AM
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#13 |
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Ka-chow!
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Economics and morality...
This is gonna be good.  |
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11-10-2012, 11:33 AM
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#14 |
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Grumpy Old Tech
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia
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Give a ****? If I can't afford to buy it new I should go without? Well **** you, Jimmy.
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Gilchrist custom guitar Yamaha SBG500 Telecaster Ibanez Iceman Roland GP-8 Quadraverb Abbey Harmonic II Marshall JTM45 clone Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded) Marshall 18W clone Fender 5F1 Champ clone Marshall 1960A Cathbard Amplification |
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11-10-2012, 11:35 AM
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#15 | |
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UG's Neil Young
Join Date: Sep 2008
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So are you pro-used? couldn't tell from your wording. |
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11-10-2012, 11:42 AM
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#16 | |
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UG's Neil Young
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Yeah, the people that say stupid crap like "If you can't afford to buy it new you should go without" are the ones that either have money or are righteous assholes. I can't believe people actually think that. If I'm paying for used, that just means I'm buying an item for what I believe it's worth in it's current condition, if it's new, then I pay for new condition+warranty. If I'm okay with buying something in used condition no-one has any right to say I can't. |
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11-10-2012, 11:43 AM
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#17 |
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Grumpy Old Tech
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia
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What about the guy selling the used item? He doesn't deserve my money - why exactly? What do you think he's going to do with it? Shove it up his arse? He's gonna spend it isn't he? There are more elements to an economy than just manufacturer to rich customer, there are entire other stratas.
I should care more about some rich multinational corporation than the little battler trying to make ends meet? Even if I want to give my money to a junky that's my ****ing business and anybody that doesn't like it can kiss my arse.
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Gilchrist custom guitar Yamaha SBG500 Telecaster Ibanez Iceman Roland GP-8 Quadraverb Abbey Harmonic II Marshall JTM45 clone Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded) Marshall 18W clone Fender 5F1 Champ clone Marshall 1960A Cathbard Amplification |
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11-10-2012, 11:44 AM
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#18 | |
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Slovenia's country singer
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Slovenia
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I don't think that I ever bought anything used. Not even a car...
I'm probably buying a used snowboard to learn on though. But gonna buy new if I dig it enough so yeah...I like having things new cause I like to screw them up myself, not have somebody do it before me. Where's the fun in that? And it's awesome to look at a thing (a car, a guitar,...) and go ''man so many good memories'' or think about all the shit you've been through while using the item and not think about somebody else having sex in the back seat of your first car before you got it. And I recently sold my first car which was passed on to me by my bro (this is different...it's family ;P ) and I still wonder who bought it and if the new owner appreciates it as much as I did. you know...little things like that.
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1. You're surfing the internet. 2. You're browsing through the UG forums. 3. You're reading now. 5. You didn't notice that there was no #4. 6. You just checked it. 7. Now you're having a lil smile. Quote:
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11-10-2012, 11:49 AM
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#19 | |
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Ka-chow!
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Arse. You like it. |
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11-10-2012, 11:49 AM
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#20 |
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UG's Neil Young
Join Date: Sep 2008
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@Kozlic: yeah but that's different, you're doing it by choice. You aren't trying to convince (read: force) others to buy new. Everyone should have the choice depending on what they want out of a product.
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