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Old 11-10-2012, 07:22 PM   #41
Quintex
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I buy used when appropriate. I don't generally buy new amps, to me that is a waste of money and they are just a pile of wood, metal and components. I was also an electronic technician by trade for most of my working career so I can keep an old amp running indefinitely. Guitars I tend to buy new, but that is because to me they are something personal, they grow with me which makes no sense because effectively they are also a pile of wood, metal and components.

Musical instruments and gear do have an advantage in that a lot of low end (high profit) stuff is sold to beginners and I think I read a study somewhere that the people who purchase these tend to quit playing after 90 days but rarely sell off the gear.

The used market is more centred around the high end stuff which would explain why Gibson Les Pauls are exponentially more expensive than you would expect. They just can't sell as many new because of the amount of them in the used market.
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:17 PM   #42
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Dear Odin, what did I start? I suppose this is what I get for saying words....

Really. though, this is a very insightful discussion, with some great views and information. I'm kinda honored that I started this, seeing as how I'm pretty terrible when it comes to things like business and economics. (I'm learning, though! )

I mean, as someone that's poor as f***, I greatly appreciate used. However, if you don't support the manufacturer, you won't have your great used prices, because anything desirable that is no longer in production has been known to skyrocket in price (See:NOS). I certainly wasn't suggesting that the used market should be done away with or is a terrible, evil thing. I just think people should be made aware what buying used means. I personally never realized the fact that buying used means that I'm not actually supporting the comapny at all (with that purchase). As for the idea that someone is going to sell their used item and buy new, I find that unlikely. Most of the people I know that sell used stuff buy most of their stuff used. They sell a used car to buy a different used car. They sell their used Dune Buggy to buy a used Motorcycle. They sell their used Mesa 4x12 and buy a used Orange 4x12. Is everyone like that? Definitely not. It's just the majority of people that I know.

Pirating is a different story altogether. I agree with what Offworld said. If someone pirates something, they didn't intend to buy it in the first place. However, if they enjoy what they pirate, it will likely lead them to purchases. I have friends that have never paid a dime for any of their music, but they go to concerts more often than Lemmy got laid. Personally, if I buy a game for Xbox, I have no qualms pirating it for PC. I already paid for it, I'm not going to pay again to play it on a different system. It would be like buying a guitar that you play on a Dual Rec, but you have to buy it again if you want to play it on a 6505. There's no way in hell I'm paying for it twice.

I guess to be more concise with my views, I think that if you can afford the new price (even if it means saving for a little longer) then you should try to opt new, as a form of support. However, if you have a tight budget, or are seeking an item that is no longer in production, then used is the way to go. In addition, there are the "assholes" that refuse to buy used. Now, it might seem ridiculous that they won't buy used, but I think it's just as ridiculous that someone would refuse to buy anything new. It's the same concept, only one person is being an elitist asshole and the other is being a penny-pinching asshole. However, they're both entitled to their views on the subject, and they should really thank each other for being the way they are. Without the people that buy new, the used-aholics have no way to get newer items in the used market, and without the people tht buy used, the new-aholics have nobody to sell their old stuff to. It's a pretty good system.

In my opinion, it's just like buying local versus buying from a corporation. You shouldn't do one or the other, you should do both. Big Corporations exist for the same reason that famous bands exist. They've paid their dues, and they provide something that a large number of people like, so, in return, they make out like bandits for that. However, you should support local business (and musicians) as well, because not only are they just trying to get by like anyone else, they also could very well be the next Corporation or famous band. I personally like local shops because if they know of a deal that you would like, they'll let you know. They work with their prices more, and are generally more friendly and honest. However, I like bigger places because of better selection and lower prices in general without needing a deal.

TL;DR: Don't stick with one or the other, do both.

Last edited by Blktiger0 : 11-10-2012 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:41 PM   #43
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Every time I walk on stage with my used Marshall 1960 cab Marshall get a piece of free advertising - they should be paying me!
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:11 PM   #44
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:33 AM   #45
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Every time I walk on stage with my used Marshall 1960 cab Marshall get a piece of free advertising - they should be paying me!


See, they ARE paying you...in sound quality!
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Old 11-11-2012, 02:00 AM   #46
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Buying used is better for the environment.
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Old 11-11-2012, 02:19 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by monwobobbo
a good lesson in economics would help tis thread. yes buying a product used is bad for the manufacturing end of things as it impacts their economic situation however there is way more to it than that. if you buy used at say GC well then that puts money into the stores pocket and f course the employees there. of course the other ? is would you buy a given item if you can't justify the cost? probably not. most people i think enjoy getting something shiny and new but hey were not all rich either. also part of the perceived value of any item is going to be resale. something like an american made strat has a better perceived value as you can sell it used for a decent percentage of the new asking price. on the othere hand a mexi-strat drops by 40% as soon as you walk out the door with it.


Here's a problem with this thread, it hinges on so many topics that it'll be hard to disentangle all the point-of-views and arguments at the end of the day.

However, since someone talked about economics, I wanted to chip in on how buying USED does can actually help instead of hurt the economy.

First and foremost we what economists call the multiplier effect, the concept isn't particularly counter-intuititive or bizarre, but tends to be generally overlooked by many people.

Basically what the multiplier effect hinges on is the fact that every $1 spent by a consumer isn't just $1 towards a country's GDP. Every dollar that is spent, a portion will go to savings, and another portion goes towards spending (labour, cost of products, purchases of future products, paying bills, paying for food or movies or another guitar).

So as the multiplier effect goes towards 1 (meaning that for every dollar spent, every cent in that dollar is re-spent). So assuming all else constant and there are no negative economic conditions like stagflation or hyper inflation, a higher multiplier effect usually equates into higher economic activity, as every dollar spent results in more economic activity being generated.

So the question here lies in: is the multiplier effect higher when the money goes towards someone selling a used product, or is it higher when going towards a company? If it goes towards selling consumer who uses the money to save up, then broadly speaking the multiplier effect is zero and there is no responding on the money. However if the money goes towards a company that responds everything on R&D or other economic activity, then it has a greater impact on the economy (assuming a condition where interest rates =0).

Of course this assumes a simple condition where we don't consider the impact of savings and interest rates. Taking savings an infrastructure spending into consideration complicates the scenario a lot further.
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Old 11-11-2012, 02:40 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Kevin Saale
**** manufacturers, I'd rather put my money in the hands of someone who isn't a faceless, soul stealing entity.


I dislike this train of thought - it essentially boils down to the opposition of great success. No one starts a multi-billion dollar company. Every company starts as the "local guy making a unique product". It's not fair how everyone around him then wants him to stay small, and not achieve great success doing what he does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fattychronic
Buying used is better for the environment.


I have mixed feelings about this argument. It's the same as the paperless movement. On one hand yeah, if those products weren't going to be produced, then the environment would be better off for it. But on the other hand, you not using a product isn't going to have any effect whatsoever on that product's production. Since it's already been produced and it's out in the world, it doesn't make much sense not to use it.
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Old 11-11-2012, 03:32 AM   #49
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**** economics. Anybody that tries to stop me buying a used amp will get a hammer to the head. And anybody that tries to lay off some capitalist ideological guilt trip on me for doing same is unlikely to fare better. It's my money and I'll give it to whoever I ****ing well feel like.

**** the economy, **** your ideologies, **** your theories, **** your moralising and **** you too.


That is all. I now return you to your regular scheduled program.
Have a nice day.
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Old 11-11-2012, 03:36 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offworld92
I have mixed feelings about this argument. It's the same as the paperless movement. On one hand yeah, if those products weren't going to be produced, then the environment would be better off for it. But on the other hand, you not using a product isn't going to have any effect whatsoever on that product's production. Since it's already been produced and it's out in the world, it doesn't make much sense not to use it.


In other words buying and using a used fridge that still uses CFC, is not helping the environment.

Second, if people stop demanding a product, it won't affect the quantity that's already out there on the shelves. However, it will stop further production of the products in future. A company won't keep producing a product with no demand.
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:06 AM   #51
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I'll admit, I've probably spent more money buying albums, going to shows, finding more bands, and buying more albums from the new bands I found all becuase I downloaded 9 songs. A lot more money.

As far as buying used, I almost always buy used. It's a money factor. I don't have the money to spend on new and usually what I like tends to be a great deal when bought used. That being said, I'm trying to sell an amp on craigslist (without so much as a care to the manufacturer) because I'm trying to fund another amp that I'll be getting brand new from a brick and mortar store.

I really don't think there is an issue with buying new or used. I would never tell someone else how to spend their money. It isn't mine and I didn't earn it.
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:00 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Blktiger0
In addition, there are the "assholes" that refuse to buy used. Now, it might seem ridiculous that they won't buy used, but I think it's just as ridiculous that someone would refuse to buy anything new. It's the same concept, only one person is being an elitist asshole and the other is being a penny-pinching asshole. However, they're both entitled to their views on the subject, and they should really thank each other for being the way they are. Without the people that buy new, the used-aholics have no way to get newer items in the used market, and without the people tht buy used, the new-aholics have nobody to sell their old stuff to. It's a pretty good system.


that's a good point

Quote:
Originally Posted by fattychronic
Buying used is better for the environment.


I'm not convinced that's true. The person I buy it off might use that money to do something much more environmentally unfriendly...
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:50 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Cathbard
**** economics. Anybody that tries to stop me buying a used amp will get a hammer to the head. And anybody that tries to lay off some capitalist ideological guilt trip on me for doing same is unlikely to fare better. It's my money and I'll give it to whoever I ****ing well feel like.

**** the economy, **** your ideologies, **** your theories, **** your moralising and **** you too.


That is all. I now return you to your regular scheduled program.
Have a nice day.

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Old 11-11-2012, 01:57 PM   #54
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This thread is full of so much stupid
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:47 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Offworld92
I dislike this train of thought - it essentially boils down to the opposition of great success. No one starts a multi-billion dollar company. Every company starts as the "local guy making a unique product". It's not fair how everyone around him then wants him to stay small, and not achieve great success doing what he does.


That was just a little sarcasm. I still say **** the manufacturers though. If your business doesn't make money, you have only yourself to blame.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:06 PM   #56
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Let's go back to the car example.

Let's say a new car costs $20,000 (just an estimation, I'm no auto guy). I can either buy that car right off the lot, or I can wait 3 years, let someone else pay that money, put a few miles and scratches on it, then buy it from them for $10,000. It's still the same car, it probably runs about the same as it used to, I just paid half of the price for it.

The same goes for guitars and smps. If I buy used I save a lot of money, and for a guy who makes minimum wage flipping burgers, cost is important to me. Used or new, you can take your pick in the end, but since it doesn't matter to me, I'm willing to go used. Regardless, of all my guitars and amps I've only bought 2 used, but then again, I'm not in the market for Splawns and Gibsons that cost thousands of dollars.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:37 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingkitty
Here's a problem with this thread, it hinges on so many topics that it'll be hard to disentangle all the point-of-views and arguments at the end of the day.

However, since someone talked about economics, I wanted to chip in on how buying USED does can actually help instead of hurt the economy.

First and foremost we what economists call the multiplier effect, the concept isn't particularly counter-intuititive or bizarre, but tends to be generally overlooked by many people.

Basically what the multiplier effect hinges on is the fact that every $1 spent by a consumer isn't just $1 towards a country's GDP. Every dollar that is spent, a portion will go to savings, and another portion goes towards spending (labour, cost of products, purchases of future products, paying bills, paying for food or movies or another guitar).

So as the multiplier effect goes towards 1 (meaning that for every dollar spent, every cent in that dollar is re-spent). So assuming all else constant and there are no negative economic conditions like stagflation or hyper inflation, a higher multiplier effect usually equates into higher economic activity, as every dollar spent results in more economic activity being generated.

So the question here lies in: is the multiplier effect higher when the money goes towards someone selling a used product, or is it higher when going towards a company? If it goes towards selling consumer who uses the money to save up, then broadly speaking the multiplier effect is zero and there is no responding on the money. However if the money goes towards a company that responds everything on R&D or other economic activity, then it has a greater impact on the economy (assuming a condition where interest rates =0).

Of course this assumes a simple condition where we don't consider the impact of savings and interest rates. Taking savings an infrastructure spending into consideration complicates the scenario a lot further.


I'll be honest, that was the most disjointed argument I've read on here so far. I can't tell what you're arguing for/against, and most of it skipped around so much that it was hard to understand.

What i did get out of it is that this "mulitplier effect" basically has to do with how much of each dollar spent on something is then re-spent buy the revieving party. In that case, you can't make an argument either way. The consumer that is selling a used product could be selling it to save their money or could be selling it to buy something else. Maybe even both. However, a company that sells something would be more complicated, but also more consistent. A good portion of the money is going to go to making more of the product and R&D like you mentioned, but it's also going to go into paychecks for employees, which would fall into the same category as the money someone gets from selling a used item, only it's guaranteed that a certain portion of their paycheck is spent on bills and food.

In that case, I would say your argument means that buying new DOES stimulate the economy more, because it puts money in the hands of more consumers and a producer.

Again, I'm not an economist, though, I'm just using reasoning and logic paired with the little knowledge I have of business and economics.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:39 PM   #58
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:44 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by mtshark
Used or new, you can take your pick in the end, but since it doesn't matter to me, I'm willing to go used.


That's the argument in a nutshell, I think (well, aside from the whole ethics thing, but let's ignore that for a moment )- I prefer to go new, but it doesn't matter to me that others go second hand, either. What does bother me is people who go s/h acting like everyone who goes new is an idiot.

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Old 11-11-2012, 06:49 PM   #60
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Who was it that said, "if economists and politicians only talked about things they actually understood the silence would be glorious." ?

Sounds like something H.L. Menken would have said.
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