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Old 11-13-2012, 03:52 PM   #41
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cause cincinnatti
is where no one wants to go
albuquerque's great
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:20 PM   #42
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cause cincinnatti
is where no one wants to go
albuquerque's great


MOTHER****ER
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:34 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
On the history side, well lots of really intense music got written by famous composers in minor keys. Beethoven thought of B minor as a "black key" (black in terms of emotion); Mozart expressed sadness and tragedy using G minor.


There's nothing wrong with utilising your own synesthesia to write consistently in your own style. However, to expect others to agree with it or to experience it in the same way is wrong.

I must say that if I strum two bare chords, one major and one minor, with the same root note, the minor chord sounds sadder to me. No one can argue that I am wrong. It is simply a fact that I experience those two chords in that way. Whether anyone else has the same experience I neither know nor care.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:01 PM   #44
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If you've studied Gregorian Chant, then you would know the timbre itself would not be enough to tell you what it was.


gregorian chant
is something only virgins
study you stupid
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:42 PM   #45
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Screw you guys. I have no idea what you're talking about with your 12 bar blues and parallel majors. I'm still a music theory noob.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:46 PM   #46
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Screw you guys. I have no idea what you're talking about with your 12 bar blues and parallel majors. I'm still a music theory noob.

Make a thread about it.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:38 PM   #47
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My god.

Im gone forever, and this is what I come back too?

God damn it, MT....
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:57 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by HotspurJr
Happy and sad are the metaphors people use to teach students how to hear major and minor.

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Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Partly history and partly pedagogy.

I don't know about you but when I was kid I got taught that minor keys are sad. Probable reason for that is that if you're teaching 5 year olds you have to generalise a bit. It's no good banging on about F minor being associated with passion and B minor being the key of passive suffering. Its far less confusing to start with "Minor keys are sad" and introduce complications later.


These are the views I share.

Basically the best description that can be used is this one sounds major and this one sounds minor. But when you are introducing that difference to someone that is new to music - particularly kids - they don't really know what they are listening for. When you use this simple distinction this one sounds kind of "happy" this one sounds kind of "sad" people go "oh yeah I kind of hear that".

But it doesn't really answer the question - WHY do people say happy and sad for major and minor respectively. I happen to have a thing for harmonic overtones and that is where I often look for answers to such questions.

This leads me to the following thoughts...

The first four harmonic overtones of a fundamental pitch are the perfect octave, the perfect fifth, another octave, a major third. These are the most audible of the overtones. Though the major third is very faint and not quite there.

But when we reinforce these overtones as individual notes it reinforces the fundamental and provides a rich full sound. It sounds strong and stable.

However because the overtone that is equivalent to the major third is so faint when we play a minor third instead then the discord that clash provides is very very faint - but we still pick up on it.

The perfect fifth still provides the stability and strength to make it a pleasing consonant chord but the minor third being out of kilter with the Maj 3rd harmonic overtone of the fundamental is just enough for us to intuitively pick up that deep within that chord there is something that is not quite perfectly aligned - some quality within that chord that is in a state of discord.

Sadness which is a very basic emotion that we associate with things being in a state of discord . Happiness on the other hand is a very basic emotion that people often associate with things being perfectly in line with their expectations.

I understand that there is a far broader range and more complex emotions, that any correlation is superficial, and that other aspects of the music can have a greater impact on the emotional interpretation of a piece of music. But I have tried to provide my thoughts on the question posed. Feel free to disagree but at this point in time it seems a perfectly reasonable theory to me.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:56 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :-D
cause cincinnatti
is where no one wants to go
albuquerque's great


None of this stuff
Makes any damn sense to me
'cos I'm from England.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:57 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
gregorian chant
is something only virgins
study you stupid


I have studied both
In much greater depth than you
Could ever believe.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:02 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
These are the views I share.

Basically the best description that can be used is this one sounds major and this one sounds minor. But when you are introducing that difference to someone that is new to music - particularly kids - they don't really know what they are listening for. When you use this simple distinction this one sounds kind of "happy" this one sounds kind of "sad" people go "oh yeah I kind of hear that".

But it doesn't really answer the question - WHY do people say happy and sad for major and minor respectively. I happen to have a thing for harmonic overtones and that is where I often look for answers to such questions.

This leads me to the following thoughts...

The first four harmonic overtones of a fundamental pitch are the perfect octave, the perfect fifth, another octave, a major third. These are the most audible of the overtones. Though the major third is very faint and not quite there.

But when we reinforce these overtones as individual notes it reinforces the fundamental and provides a rich full sound. It sounds strong and stable.

However because the overtone that is equivalent to the major third is so faint when we play a minor third instead then the discord that clash provides is very very faint - but we still pick up on it.

The perfect fifth still provides the stability and strength to make it a pleasing consonant chord but the minor third being out of kilter with the Maj 3rd harmonic overtone of the fundamental is just enough for us to intuitively pick up that deep within that chord there is something that is not quite perfectly aligned - some quality within that chord that is in a state of discord.

Sadness which is a very basic emotion that we associate with things being in a state of discord . Happiness on the other hand is a very basic emotion that people often associate with things being perfectly in line with their expectations.

I understand that there is a far broader range and more complex emotions, that any correlation is superficial, and that other aspects of the music can have a greater impact on the emotional interpretation of a piece of music. But I have tried to provide my thoughts on the question posed. Feel free to disagree but at this point in time it seems a perfectly reasonable theory to me.



Ah, but ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandq...,-20342,00.html

" The Western musical canon has always attached sentiment and gravity to minor keys, so we are preconditioned to indulge those notes with more emotion and sensibility. Interestingly, Asian and African music is generally opposed to this. The traditional Nigerian keys for martial anthems are always minor, wheras most Japanese couples are married to a traditional air named 'Fo Rki Ngraoul' which would have any westerners in tears to what they would interpret as a warning of imminent tragedy. "

and

"If I remember correctly, in ancient Greece, the Lydian harmoniai was used to evoke melancholy and sadness as our minor scale; and the Lydian closely resembles our major scale."

Honestly? I think it's mostly acculturation. The psychoacoustic explanations don't take account of the fact that other cultures can take the same set of intervals and hear an entirely different emotion in it.
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Last edited by Sleepy__Head : 11-14-2012 at 04:04 AM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:03 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by vampirelazarus
My god.

Im gone forever, and this is what I come back too?

God damn it, MT....


Hey Vampirelaz'rus
We missed you like a lost child
Good to have you back.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:40 AM   #53
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jesus ****ing christ
jesus ****ing flapjack christ
god ****ing damn it
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:43 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Ah, but ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandq...,-20342,00.html

" The Western musical canon has always attached sentiment and gravity to minor keys, so we are preconditioned to indulge those notes with more emotion and sensibility. Interestingly, Asian and African music is generally opposed to this. The traditional Nigerian keys for martial anthems are always minor, wheras most Japanese couples are married to a traditional air named 'Fo Rki Ngraoul' which would have any westerners in tears to what they would interpret as a warning of imminent tragedy. "

and

"If I remember correctly, in ancient Greece, the Lydian harmoniai was used to evoke melancholy and sadness as our minor scale; and the Lydian closely resembles our major scale."

Honestly? I think it's mostly acculturation. The psychoacoustic explanations don't take account of the fact that other cultures can take the same set of intervals and hear an entirely different emotion in it.

Good points. I guess that's where my ethnocentric tinted glasses fail me.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:32 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
...
The perfect fifth still provides the stability and strength to make it a pleasing consonant chord but the minor third being out of kilter with the Maj 3rd harmonic overtone of the fundamental is just enough for us to intuitively pick up that deep within that chord there is something that is not quite perfectly aligned - some quality within that chord that is in a state of discord.

Sadness which is a very basic emotion that we associate with things being in a state of discord . Happiness on the other hand is a very basic emotion that people often associate with things being perfectly in line with their expectations.

I understand that there is a far broader range and more complex emotions, that any correlation is superficial, and that other aspects of the music can have a greater impact on the emotional interpretation of a piece of music. But I have tried to provide my thoughts on the question posed. Feel free to disagree but at this point in time it seems a perfectly reasonable theory to me.


Yes, that's perfectly plausible. In fact it's pretty much exactly what I suspected was going on.

Edit: even in the light of ethnic considerations it makes sense. For a start, it is true: one of the overtones of the tonic has a discord with the minor third. Secondly, if African music uses minor keys for martial anthems it doesn't mean they don't hear this discord. Perhaps they interpret it differently, or their perception of what a national anthem or military tune should express could be different in some way. Culture is a pretty complicated thing to factor into discussions of music.

Last edited by Jehannum : 11-14-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:40 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
jesus ****ing christ
jesus ****ing flapjack christ
god ****ing damn it


this might be the single greatest haiku I've ever read
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:27 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by mrkeka
this might be the single greatest haiku I've ever read


i was inspired to write it after i saw three snowflakes pass by my window

and then coming back to see this thread was still going
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:25 PM   #58
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What's the matter wolf?
Can you not handle all the
bull shit going on here?
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:00 PM   #59
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What's the matter wolf?
Can you not handle all the
bull shit going on here?

You screwed that up.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:39 PM   #60
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You screwed that up.

Hey Joe, where you goin' with that gun in your hand?
Hey Joe, I said where you goin' with that gun in your hand?
Alright. I'm goin down to shoot my old lady,
you know I caught her messin' 'round with another man.
Yeah,! I'm goin' down to shoot my old lady,
you know I caught her messin' 'round with another man.
Huh! And that ain't too cool.
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