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Old 11-12-2012, 08:45 PM   #141
Draken
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I wonder how some of the old Republican presidents would view the modern Republican party.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:46 PM   #142
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I wonder how some of the old Republican presidents would view the modern Republican party.


Richard Nixon would send two guys to break into their headquarters.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:50 PM   #143
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Richard Nixon would send two guys to break into their headquarters.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t8hpEKb4gk&noredirect=1
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:50 PM   #144
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speaking of nixon, you know it's bad when his policies look liberal by today's standards. cooling tension with the USSR and arms reduction treaties, creating the environmental protection agency, at least saying he wanted some kind of universal health care, etc.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:51 PM   #145
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Similarly, a civilised society owes its people protection from ignorance, squalor, want, sickness and idleness and the Government is the biggest part of the solution because of its power.
You were doing great until here. Your supposition the government should be paternalistic is ridiculous. Adults of good mental condition have every right to do stupid things; including engage in activities that cause them to display ignorance or become idle (if they become idle through personal choice, such as being a generally bad employee and eventually get fired).
Government should (and does) protect from sickness; government should (and does) protect from squalor and want that was not self-inflicted (such as gambling away all of one's money). Government should NOT protect people from choosing to be idle, neither should government protect people from their own ignorance. As I said before, the government should NOT be paternalistic.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:53 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by primusfan
speaking of nixon, you know it's bad when his policies look liberal by today's standards. cooling tension with the USSR and arms reduction treaties, creating the environmental protection agency, at least saying he wanted some kind of universal health care, etc.


Nixon was clearly an atheist muslim socialist communist nazi then.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:54 PM   #147
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Eisenhower is my favorite president cuz he was a badass.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:56 PM   #148
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Legalize hemp...

or go off the cliff.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:03 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
You were doing great until here. Your supposition the government should be paternalistic is ridiculous. Adults of good mental condition have every right to do stupid things; including engage in activities that cause them to display ignorance or become idle (if they become idle through personal choice, such as being a generally bad employee and eventually get fired).
Government should (and does) protect from sickness; government should (and does) protect from squalor and want that was not self-inflicted (such as gambling away all of one's money). Government should NOT protect people from choosing to be idle, neither should government protect people from their own ignorance. As I said before, the government should NOT be paternalistic.

I was making an obscure reference to the Beveridge report http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beveridge_Report.

Idleness refers to the fact the state should seek to help people find work, ignorance is about making sure that everyone is adequately educated.

I'm not saying government should be paternal. Well, maybe I am. The whole point of a sovereign state's power is that it protects its states from other sovereign entitities and looks after its citizenry, surely? And since we're in democratic states if they ever go too far the system is designed to oust them.

It's just people are too ignorant to understand the political system and are sold lies and right-wing bullshit.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:08 PM   #150
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While I'm all for tax hikes for the rich, and I think we democrats should be ready to go off the cliff, I'd rather avoid it, and if that means simply making the rich pay more of their established rates that are currently being deducted so be it. If the republicans start being unreasonable we need to be ready to go off the cliff, the cliff would actually be really attractive if it weren't for the unemployment going up bit, but I'd rather avoid it by taking half-measures THAT THEN LEAD TO WHOLE MEASURES BY THE WAY. After we dodge the bullet, we need to start thinking long term.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:20 PM   #151
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Serious question: if we cut our defense budget in half, would our allies be forced to spend more on theirs? Or would it not affect them. I've always been under the impression that one of the reasons our allies have a lot of successful social programs is they have no need to finance a military since they know we've got their back. Or do you think in this day and age, they'd continue to just keep a really small, modestly funded military?

NATO would dissolve. Europe would plunge into another arms race. France would lose again.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:24 PM   #152
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I would like to see some implosions.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:27 PM   #153
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NATO would dissolve. Europe would plunge into another arms race. France would lose again.

Western Europe will never descend into war again. We've learned as a continent.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:28 PM   #154
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Western Europe will never descend into war again. We've learned as a continent.



I dunno, mang. Germany is certainly eyeing up all that wine and cheese in France now that they can afford it.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:31 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by magnus_maximus
I was making an obscure reference to the Beveridge report http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beveridge_Report.

Idleness refers to the fact the state should seek to help people find work, ignorance is about making sure that everyone is adequately educated.

I'm not saying government should be paternal. Well, maybe I am. The whole point of a sovereign state's power is that it protects its states from other sovereign entitities and looks after its citizenry, surely?

No, the whole point of a sovereign state is to protect its citizens' freedoms, not to "look after its citizenry". Protection of freedom can and should extend to things like adequate education in this era. It should NOT extend to things like helping people find work. One gains all the tools to find work in either secondary education or higher education.


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It's just people are too ignorant to understand the political system and are sold lies and right-wing bullshit.

Yes, because there's never anyone who ends up being sold left-wing bullshit. Both sides of the political spectrum are equally guilty of using talking points, lies, etc. Stop acting like one side of the aisle is inherently good, and the other is evil. That just makes you sound like you're ignorant.

However, I will give that most people are too ignorant about the political system. Thing is, they have every right to be that ignorant. If they choose to NOT do some basic research on all the candidates (something I do every election, btw; I follow politics in my state of Wisconsin and on the US national level very closely)...then it's NOT up to the government to "correct" their ignorance. People have every right to ignorant on any number of subjects, including politics.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:36 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
No, the whole point of a sovereign state is to protect its citizens' freedoms, not to "look after its citizenry". Protection of freedom can and should extend to things like adequate education in this era. It should NOT extend to things like helping people find work. One gains all the tools to find work in either secondary education or higher education.

Yes, because there's never anyone who ends up being sold left-wing bullshit. Both sides of the political spectrum are equally guilty of using talking points, lies, etc. Stop acting like one side of the aisle is inherently good, and the other is evil. That just makes you sound like you're ignorant.

However, I will give that most people are too ignorant about the political system. Thing is, they have every right to be that ignorant. If they choose to NOT do some basic research on all the candidates (something I do every election, btw; I follow politics in my state of Wisconsin and on the US national level very closely)...then it's NOT up to the government to "correct" their ignorance. People have every right to ignorant on any number of subjects, including politics.


The difference is people are almost always sold right wingism under the guise of "freedom" when in fact the left wing and freedom are anything but mutually exclusive- except the left wing includes freedom from want, disease and squalor.

And bolded is just plain wrong. Are you saying that everyone who is unemployed is just a failure of education?

Underlined - that's nowhere near true. What about monarchies? Dictatorships?

Nobody has the right to be ignorant, because they become a burden not only on themselves but on others. Ignorance and idiocy are the inertia that holds back society.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:37 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Yes, because there's never anyone who ends up being sold left-wing bullshit. Both sides of the political spectrum are equally guilty of using talking points, lies, etc. Stop acting like one side of the aisle is inherently good, and the other is evil. That just makes you sound like you're ignorant.

One side is way more guilty tho.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:40 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by magnus_maximus
The difference is people are almost always sold right wingism under the guise of "freedom" when in fact the left wing and freedom are anything but mutually exclusive- except the left wing includes freedom from want, disease and squalor.

And bolded is just plain wrong. Are you saying that everyone who is unemployed is just a failure of education?

Underlined - that's nowhere near true. What about monarchies? Dictatorships
?

Nobody has the right to be ignorant, because they become a burden not only on themselves but on others. Ignorance and idiocy are the inertia that holds back society.



I mean, the stated goal of primary and secondary education is to prepare you with the tools for success in a profession...

And, remember, government protects those 'freedoms' that it defines. Monarchies and Dictatorships simply don't define freedoms. Freedom is Slavery.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:42 PM   #159
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Western Europe will never descend into war again. We've learned as a continent.

One word answer to that one man.
Bullshit.
I know it's a compound word but it's still one word.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:43 PM   #160
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Yes, because there's never anyone who ends up being sold left-wing bullshit. Both sides of the political spectrum are equally guilty of using talking points, lies, etc.

The right wing is worse. Way worse. They're a well-oiled bullshit-churning machine.
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