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Old 11-12-2012, 09:46 PM   #161
magnus_maximus
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Originally Posted by Jackal58
One word answer to that one man.
Bullshit.
I know it's a compound word but it's still one word.

Britain shares its navy with France and America has our nukes, not to mention the globalised economy renders war completely self-destructive - moreso.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:59 PM   #162
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War is always self destructive.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:59 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by magnus_maximus
The difference is people are almost always sold right wingism under the guise of "freedom" when in fact the left wing and freedom are anything but mutually exclusive- except the left wing includes freedom from want, disease and squalor.

Prove it.

I've stated that neither side is better than the other, which is true. Things won't magically get better if "your guys" are able to get things done.

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Originally Posted by magnus_maximus
And bolded is just plain wrong. Are you saying that everyone who is unemployed is just a failure of education?
Nope, but I am saying it's not the job of the government to make sure you get a job.

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Nobody has the right to be ignorant, because they become a burden not only on themselves but on others. Ignorance and idiocy are the inertia that holds back society.
How do they become a burden to other by being ignorant or idiotic? If they're too ignorant or idiotic to keep up with things, society will simply leave them behind.
History is filled with heaps of ignorant and idiotic people. Some of them are even mostly famous for such bad qualities. (Look up bad leaders in history. For example, Louis XVI's ignorance and idiocy on the true state of France during his reign cost him his royal head.)

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Originally Posted by magnus_maximus
Underlined - that's nowhere near true. What about monarchies? Dictatorships?

That's the problem with authoritarian governments -- they decide whether you get to have certain freedoms. That's why most developed societies (and many developing societies as well) have opted for representative forms of government. Such representative governments protect freedoms for ALL, rather than deciding whether Guy1/Girl1 gets them and Guy2/Girl2 doesn't.

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Originally Posted by ErikLensherr
The right wing is worse. Way worse. They're a well-oiled bullshit-churning machine.

Does it really matter who is worse? I imagine several years down the line, politics will shift slightly and the other side will become a "well-oiled, bullshit-churning machine".
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #164
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Does it really matter who is worse? I imagine several years down the line, politics will shift slightly and the other side will become a "well-oiled, bullshit-churning machine".


Of course it matters. If one side lies a lot more than the other, they should be called on it, not let off the hook with lazy false equivalencies about how "they're both equally to blame." That's a lie right there, Sam.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:13 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by ErikLensherr
Of course it matters. If one side lies a lot more than the other, they should be called on it, not let off the hook with lazy false equivalencies about how "they're both equally to blame." That's a lie right there, Sam.

1) I never said they were both equally to blame. I said they have both lied, used talking points, etc. (The language I used was meant to be quite specific, except for the "etc." part because I couldn't think of anything else. )
2) You're missing my overall point about that. I trying to say that, over the course of the last 60 years, I'm sure that both the left and the right have engaged in equally heinous acts. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that, if a neutral organization (such as maybe a foreign, non-partisan group) checked whether the Left or the Right lied more, it'd probably equalize out over the last 60 years. Maybe the UK Right-wing has lied more in recent years, but the UK Left-wing is equally guilty for its current and past lies.
Acting like one side is clearly better than the other because the Left-wing has lied as much in recent years as the Right-wing has...well, that's just a rather small-picture view. Look at the big picture.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:17 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
1) I never said they were both equally to blame. I said they have both lied, used talking points, etc. (The language I used was meant to be quite specific, except for the "etc." part because I couldn't think of anything else. )
2) You're missing my overall point about that. I trying to say that, over the course of the last 60 years, I'm sure that both the left and the right have engaged in equally heinous acts. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that, if a neutral organization (such as maybe a foreign, non-partisan group) checked whether the Left or the Right lied more, it'd probably equalize out over the last 60 years. Maybe the UK Right-wing has lied more in recent years, but the UK Left-wing is equally guilty for its current and past lies.
Acting like one side is clearly better than the other because the Left-wing has lied as much in recent years as the Right-wing has...well, that's just a rather small-picture view. Look at the big picture.


I see your logical argument...


... And I raise you one Elmo.


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Old 11-12-2012, 10:22 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
1) I never said they were both equally to blame. I said they have both lied, used talking points, etc. (The language I used was meant to be quite specific, except for the "etc." part because I couldn't think of anything else. )
2) You're missing my overall point about that. I trying to say that, over the course of the last 60 years, I'm sure that both the left and the right have engaged in equally heinous acts. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that, if a neutral organization (such as maybe a foreign, non-partisan group) checked whether the Left or the Right lied more, it'd probably equalize out over the last 60 years. Maybe the UK Right-wing has lied more in recent years, but the UK Left-wing is equally guilty for its current and past lies.
Acting like one side is clearly better than the other because the Left-wing has lied as much in recent years as the Right-wing has...well, that's just a rather small-picture view. Look at the big picture.

But why? Why do you assume it magically has to balance out and why is it so inconceivable that one is just objectively worse than the other?

Forget about the past 60 years and just focus on Romney vs. Obama. There are nonpartisan fact-checking organizations that take accounts of this stuff and Romney ran a much more dishonest campaign than Obama: http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/10/...lies-chart.html
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:24 PM   #168
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sam is always pulling this "everyone sucks equally!" crap. like come on sam, you're starting to sound like a communist.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:25 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by ErikLensherr
Forget about the past 60 years and just focus on Romney vs. Obama. There are nonpartisan fact-checking organizations that take accounts of this stuff and Romney ran a much more dishonest campaign than Obama: http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/10/...lies-chart.html

And there's things that Obama said he would do as President and never did. What's your point? Btw, I found both Obama AND Romney to be terrible candidates. (And no, I'm not a Ron Paul-er or anything else.)

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Originally Posted by Eastwinn
sam is always pulling this "everyone sucks equally!" crap. like come on sam, you're starting to sound like a communist.



I also end up pulling the "goverment should NOT paternalistic" crap, which is definitely NOT Communist.

Call me a follower of the Lockian school of political thought, albeit one with a rather pessimistic attitude towards 20th century/21st century government.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:31 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
And there's things that Obama said he would do as President and never did. What's your point? Btw, I found both Obama AND Romney to be terrible candidates. (And no, I'm not a Ron Paul-er or anything else.)




I also end up pulling the "goverment should NOT paternalistic" crap, which is definitely NOT Communist.

Call me a follower of the Lockian school of political thought, albeit one with a rather pessimistic attitude towards 20th century/21st century government.



Naw how about we take everyone outside, give them guns, and solve elections the Hobbes way?
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:31 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
And there's things that Obama said he would do as President and never did. What's your point? Btw, I found both Obama AND Romney to be terrible candidates. (And no, I'm not a Ron Paul-er or anything else.)


You don't have to support or like Obama to acknowledge that Romney was a worse liar.

Same as you don't have to like John Kerry to acknowledge the "Swift Boats" ads were bullshit.

Or approve of Obamacare to acknowledge "death panels" are bullshit.

Or support the Sandinistas to acknowledge that basically everything Reagan said about Iran-Contra was bullshit.

And so on and so forth.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:40 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by ErikLensherr
You don't have to support or like Obama to acknowledge that Romney was a worse liar.

Same as you don't have to like John Kerry to acknowledge the "Swift Boats" ads were bullshit.

Or approve of Obamacare to acknowledge "death panels" are bullshit.

Or support the Sandinistas to acknowledge that basically everything Reagan said about Iran-Contra was bullshit.

And so on and so forth.

You're supposing I supported Bush or Romney. I didn't. I found Bush to be rather ineffectual, and all Romney did was say, "I'm NOT Obama, but I should be the President. My policies are exactly the opposite of his". That doesn't change the fact that I still think Obama has lied about several things over the course of his presidency.

Also, if you paid close attention to the American political race (not just read a story or two on it), you'd see that both Romney and Obama were engaged in lying. That's why I found both candidates to be deplorable. I really don't want a man in office who basically twists things to make his way look like it's the best way. Unfortunately, there's WAY TOO MANY politicians who do this today, no matter their political affiliation. Politics today is a huge lie-fest, and that doesn't change just because of the side of the Political Spectrum varies from politician to politician.

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Naw how about we take everyone outside, give them guns, and solve elections the Hobbes way?



"Nasty, brutal, & short", huh?
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Last edited by crazysam23_Atax : 11-12-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:41 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
You're supposing I supported Bush or Romney. I didn't. I found Bush to be rather ineffectual, and all Romney did was say, "I'm NOT Obama, but I should be the President. My policies are exactly the opposite of his". That doesn't change the fact that I still think Obama has lied about several things over the course of his presidency.




"Nasty, brutal, & short", huh?



It's only the most efficient way.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:43 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
You're supposing I supported Bush or Romney. I didn't. I found Bush to be rather ineffectual, and all Romney did was say, "I'm NOT Obama, but I should be the President. My policies are exactly the opposite of his". That doesn't change the fact that I still think Obama has lied about several things over the course of his presidency.

I absolutely am not, lol. It doesn't matter what affiliation you are, anyone can tell the difference between facts and lies.

I support Obama and acknowledge he hasn't been completely honest. But Romney is more dishonest.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:46 PM   #175
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It's only the most efficient way.

*strokes beard* Hmm...you may be on to something there...






Why does searching for "Kermit the Frog" pull up an image with an old guy clutching his chest?

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Originally Posted by ErikLensherr
I support Obama and acknowledge he hasn't been completely honest. But Romney is more dishonest.

Not really.


But you're welcome to your biased opinion on the matter. I'll take mine and go over here. *toddles off to a more comfortable chair*

Edit:
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Originally Posted by Jackal58
War is always self destructive.

To end my contribution to this thread...



Might as well go out with damn good music playing as you exit, right?
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:49 PM   #176
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:54 PM   #177
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Not really.


But you're welcome to your biased opinion on the matter. I'll take mine and go over here. *toddles off to a more comfortable chair*

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Old 11-12-2012, 10:59 PM   #178
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Eisenhower is my favorite president cuz he was a badass.


i see your eisenhower and raise you a theodore roosevelt.

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Old 11-12-2012, 11:07 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
You're supposing I supported Bush or Romney. I didn't.

Actually he presented his case in a way that doesn't hinge on you being for one or against the other. It's just facts, cold uncaring facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I found Bush to be rather ineffectual, and all Romney did was say, "I'm NOT Obama, but I should be the President. My policies are exactly the opposite of his". That doesn't change the fact that I still think Obama has lied about several things over the course of his presidency.

Not related but funnily enough the last debate Romney seemed to say his policies were pretty much the same, but somehow Obama's were worse
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Also, if you paid close attention to the American political race (not just read a story or two on it), you'd see that both Romney and Obama were engaged in lying.

Actually Eric just posted a link to a site that showed that both of them lied, he isn't claiming one is always telling the truth. His case is that one side objectively is lying more than the other.

If Timmy has 42 apples and John has 12, Timmy objectively has more apples than John. It doesn't matter that John also has apples when you say that, as long as they are fewer than Timmy's your statement is true.
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That's why I found both candidates to be deplorable. I really don't want a man in office who basically twists things to make his way look like it's the best way.

That is every politician ever.
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Unfortunately, there's WAY TOO MANY politicians who do this today, no matter their political affiliation. Politics today is a huge lie-fest, and that doesn't change just because of the side of the Political Spectrum varies from politician to politician.

The problem is that you seem to always want to equate the two sides, as if John takes up the same amount of space with his apples as Timmy does in our collective basket. Both sides lie, that is true. But one side is objectively lying more at a scale that is just ridiculous.

You don't have to support Democrats/Obama/liberalism or really any side for that matter to see that.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:20 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
1) I never said they were both equally to blame. I said they have both lied, used talking points, etc. (The language I used was meant to be quite specific, except for the "etc." part because I couldn't think of anything else. )
2) You're missing my overall point about that. I trying to say that, over the course of the last 60 years, I'm sure that both the left and the right have engaged in equally heinous acts. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that, if a neutral organization (such as maybe a foreign, non-partisan group) checked whether the Left or the Right lied more, it'd probably equalize out over the last 60 years. Maybe the UK Right-wing has lied more in recent years, but the UK Left-wing is equally guilty for its current and past lies.
Acting like one side is clearly better than the other because the Left-wing has lied as much in recent years as the Right-wing has...well, that's just a rather small-picture view. Look at the big picture.

If you had a foreign, non-partisan group examine our politics, there would be no "left." Only a right and a further right.
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