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Old 11-19-2012, 06:37 PM   #21
mdc
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There are scales like Dorian, Lydian Dominant that are very useful in certain progressions. Certainly some modern blues/fusion progressions where the chords can sometimes be moving fairly slowly (one chord every 2 bars or more).

It's a mode, you're using a mode, but not in the truly traditional way that modes are meant to be used (back in the dawn of time).

Depending on the context of a dominant chord in a progression, it can be very suited to the Lydian dominant scale. A mode of Melodic Minor. Nothing wrong with saying it's a mode of Melodic Minor. Nothing wrong with that at all.

These modes and scales don't exist for nothing. We can use them. And use them in their just context, and not "major scale with accidentals" or "minor scale with accidentals".
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:12 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
that may be true, and it's certainly possible to amass some skill adopting the thought process of using CST as an analytical method. but ultimately, it detracts from the view of the bigger picture, and places the focus on the chord - it almost entirely refutes the idea of a key. might work in jazz, blues, and some more modern genres, but in classical music, a simple mozart minuet would have you hurdling your own leg. it's simply not a holistic perspective, and therefore, not one that should be adopted.

don't get me wrong - when i'm improvising over some sick chord changes, i'll sometimes fall back on CST (in addition to using my ear, naturally) because it's simply quicker to think that way. but personally, the only time i'd ever use CST as an analytical tool is if a piece is atonal. viewing music as based on a key doesn't work there, because there is no key. if a piece was to change keys very quickly (much like giant steps), it is still considered as functional harmony (unless anyone wants to argue that ii-V-I sequences aren't tonal).


This is why MT makes my head spin. Here we have a context that you admit is useful - you admit that you use it yourself. And yet if somebody hadn't pushed back, a basic piece of very useful knowledge would have been lost:

CST is something that lots of really skilled musicians use to improvise.

I don't know why you would assume that, from the context in which I brought it up, we were talking about Mozart minuets rather than contemporary jazz improvisation. Especially because I brought it up in the context of using a scale in place of chords - so how on earth do we get to me talking about an "analytical approach."

CST is a valid improvisational approach used by a lot of great musicians. In a CST context, the Mixolydian scale is considered a dominant scale, not a major scale, because it is the scale you use to replace dominant chords. Why is that so freakin' complicated?
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:39 PM   #23
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most of those people who say they think in scales probably aren't thinking in scales

remember that it's a lot easier to sell a book when it's 'let me show you the secrets of all these scale shapes' rather than 'let me show you how i got good at the fundamentals of chord tones and established good phrasing through studying and understanding the works of musicians that influenced me throughout my time as a musician'
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
This is why MT makes my head spin. Here we have a context that you admit is useful - you admit that you use it yourself. And yet if somebody hadn't pushed back, a basic piece of very useful knowledge would have been lost:

CST is something that lots of really skilled musicians use to improvise.


sorry, was the logic here too tough for you to follow? i'll try to be a little clearer for the peanut gallery next time.

nobody needed to push back. the first ****ing sentence i said in this thread was "CST is an improvisational tool." don't believe me? go back and read it. the post is unedited, go have fun with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
I don't know why you would assume that, from the context in which I brought it up, we were talking about Mozart minuets rather than contemporary jazz improvisation. Especially because I brought it up in the context of using a scale in place of chords - so how on earth do we get to me talking about an "analytical approach."


because modality is useless as an analytical system, unless you want to write in the pre-17th century style. it's far more important to understand tonality before getting into CST - not doing so is a mistake than waves and waves of rank amateurs make.

you're talking about using a scale over chords - how is that not analysis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
CST is a valid improvisational approach used by a lot of great musicians. In a CST context, the Mixolydian scale is considered a dominant scale, not a major scale, because it is the scale you use to replace dominant chords. Why is that so freakin' complicated?


i wouldn't use CST unless the chord changes were non-diatonic and went by at rapid speeds (and i'm improvising, not composing). in all other accounts, there's no reason to use CST - think in keys. unless, of course, wankery is your thing. then, by all means, go ahead and do it. go play A mixolydian over an A7 chord in the key of G major. if your ability to function within a key is that poor, that's pretty much your only option.

and dominant is a function, not a type of scale. the dominant scale doesn't exist. you can call it a dominant scale, but it means nothing more than calling it "greg" or "call of duty". hell, in a twelve bar blues, the only true dominant chord is the V7 - I7 and IV7, despite being the same quality of chord, are not "dominant seventh" chords. they have come to be called as such, and it's great to be aware of the common practice (misnomer or otherwise), but they're not truly dominant chords, and, as such, the "dominant scale" is just a nickname. mixolydian is a major mode.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:50 PM   #25
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from now on major is greg and minor is call of duty

let's see if it catches on from there

would make more sense than ionian and aeolian. and CoD would probably pay me and joseph for making their shitty ass games some $$

i think i've said before that improvisation is little more than composition in real-time and while tricks will help you out, you'll plateau in your creativity and success unless you can approach your melodies in as sophisticated a manner as sitting with your instrument or in front of your DAW and understanding your phrasing beyond throwing shapes at a wall and hoping they stick because the 7 notes all theoretically will work consonantly no matter how poor your phrasing or general sense of melody and rhythm might be.

Last edited by Hail : 11-20-2012 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:48 PM   #26
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If a Dbmaj7#11 pops up (unrelated to the key) in a Wayne Shorter tune... I think we all know the "go to" scale for that is Ab major. It's always easier to think of changes relating to a tonality whether you are improvising or analyzing... on a ii V I, of course it's clumsy thinking Dorian - Mixolydian - Ionian (it's also a little lame playing it) when it all relates to a key. To say that modes are obsolete or imply that learning the concept is useless, though, is misleading to musicians that don't understand them. The more concepts you understand, the better grasp you have of the "big picture".
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:50 PM   #27
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To tell someone who is learning to improv over Impressions for the first time to play C Major is going to get a pretty blank stare...
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:51 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamrockGuitar
If a Dbmaj7#11 pops up (unrelated to the key) in a Wayne Shorter tune... I think we all know the "go to" scale for that is Ab major. It's always easier to think of changes relating to a tonality whether you are improvising or analyzing... on a ii V I, of course it's clumsy thinking Dorian - Mixolydian - Ionian (it's also a little lame playing it) when it all relates to a key. To say that modes are obsolete or imply that learning the concept is useless, though, is misleading to musicians that don't understand them. The more concepts you understand, the better grasp you have of the "big picture".


what the hell are you talking about, i don't think in terms of scales because i have more important things to worry about than note choice when i'm playing music.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:13 PM   #29
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what the hell are you talking about, i don't think in terms of scales because i have more important things to worry about than note choice when i'm playing music.


That sucks you "worry" about anything when you are improvising... maybe you should rethink your method.
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:07 AM   #30
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INB4 mode war.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:25 AM   #31
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The modes kill everyone.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:08 PM   #32
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Modes, not even once.
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:58 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Hail
the only modes in tonal music are major and minor

no ionian, no dorian, no aeolian. forget everything you've read and start from scratch.

also, a scale can't be dominant for christ's sake. that's a chord function. it might be based on the "dominant" chord, but unless it's used as an expansion of the V7 to resolve (and even then that would just be as a highlight to the chord function) it's just a major scale with a b7. you people overcomplicate everything.
This.

There's no such thing as a "dominant mode." That's not a thing. There are three types of modes, when speaking of the major scale modes: major, minor and diminished. The tonic triad is the only thing considered when using this terminology.

Not to mention that this whole discussion is irrelevant.
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