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Old 11-20-2012, 12:16 AM   #21
vampirelazarus
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:43 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
haha, that's cute. so you're saying that because it doesn't have a D natural, it can't be in Eb major, and must be modal? if you're telling me you can't have a Db in the key of Eb, you don't even know what a key is, and you don't know what a mode is, either. and so you haven't given a satisfactory counterargument to my first question.

C major scale: C D E F G A B C
C ionian: C D E F G A B C

i expressly told you not to use the C major scale in your answer, unless you're going to tell me that a key and a scale are the same thing (which i highly advise against, because your arguments would then be completely invalid). so try again - we're talking about KEYS and modes, not scales and modes. again, you haven't given a satisfactory counterargument -- 0 for 2, my friend.

you may try again if you like, but be sure to use valid arguments. i don't like wasting my time.



Wow... talk about wasting time, this is truly futile. It also shows the academic snobbery of schooled musicians who just regurgitate what they are taught in Music Class and think they know it all. Classical Music Theory classes typically teach very briefly about Church Modes in Early Music and state that they are hardly used in modern music. I know this because I was studying Classical Guitar, Baroque Lute, AND Composition in college, along with Jazz Improvisation, when you were about two years old. I've also been a gigging musician and Music Instructor for the last 20 years and have used Modes extensively in all styles of music. Before you are "aggressive with your words" you may want to check your references so you don't end up sounding foolish. Go recheck your homework, Junior, and hand it in tomorrow... you haven't passed the class yet.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:44 AM   #23
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Nothing sets off an argument in MT quite like modes.

TS, before you get anywhere near learning modes you need to get a complete basis in tonal theory. Which means keys, chords, and intervals.

If you want to hear actual modal music then your best bet is to listen to Palestrina, some Monteverdi and other early baroque composers.



To HamrockGuitar^, its posts like this, that don't offer any advice or knowledge, and are simply combative, that do not help anybody and lead to more argument. Why can't we be friends?
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absolutely what will said

Yay, my first compliment!

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Old 11-20-2012, 12:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by HamrockGuitar
Wow... talk about wasting time, this is truly futile. It also shows the academic snobbery of schooled musicians who just regurgitate what they are taught in Music Class and think they know it all. Classical Music Theory classes typically teach very briefly about Church Modes in Early Music and state that they are hardly used in modern music. I know this because I was studying Classical Guitar, Baroque Lute, AND Composition in college, along with Jazz Improvisation, when you were about two years old. I've also been a gigging musician and Music Instructor for the last 20 years and have used Modes extensively in all styles of music. Before you are "aggressive with your words" you may want to check your references so you don't end up sounding foolish. Go recheck your homework, Junior, and hand it in tomorrow... you haven't passed the class yet.


you studied baroque and jazz with nothing in between -- have fun calling some of mozart's lines "mixolydian".

all you do is say i'm a snob -- don't worry, i've heard it before from countless people who were unable to refute my arguments. i mean, name calling is all you can do when the things you know no longer suffice. but anyway, i'm not going to waste my time with an old dog who thinks he knows his shit so well that new tricks have become an impossibility for him. congratulations, old man -- your future is looking quite stale, even looking over a computer screen.

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To HamrockGuitar^, its posts like this, that don't offer any advice or knowledge, and are simply combative, that do not help anybody and lead to more argument. Why can't we be friends?


eh, cut him some slack. if i paid money to study music and came out with his understanding, i'd have a stick up my ass, too.

i just find it really funny that people resort to name-calling when it becomes blatantly obvious that they can't even win an argument, and they think it makes the other party look bad.

but really, all it does is shows the bystanders that the person doing the name-calling has nothing else to fall back on. people aren't stupid. they have the uncanny ability to add 2 and 2 and get 4.

at least, SOME people do.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf : 11-20-2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:47 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by rockingamer2
It's a good ballpark. Given the sheer amount of songs that are created and released these days, even saying that one out of a hundred are modal is too much.

What about music that's not in a key? Or music that is not descended from Western Classical Music or from Contemporary popular styles? Ever thought of that?
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:58 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenGuitar
What about music that's not in a key? Or music that is not descended from Western Classical Music or from Contemporary popular styles? Ever thought of that?


atonality. if you want, you're welcome to submit an example of music that doesn't fit in a key but DOES fit in a mode...though i think you'll have quite a bit of trouble with that (assuming you actually understand the concept of a key).

and it doesn't need to be descended from any particular style or idiom - there are only two types of music: tonal and atonal. musics from some cultures may not have conventions that fit...neatly, shall we say, into our system, but tonality exists, and modality has all but expired. even modality utilizes functions of tonality (in that it has a tonal center), but the concept of a key has effectively replaced the concept of modality. it's difficult to listen even to old modal works and not hear them as being in a key, because of the way music has evolved. it's like listening to a gregorian chant and hearing harmony in your head - a thousand years ago, such a thing would have been unheard of. music, at that time, existed solely as melody.

it's very feasible to argue that musics from styles other than western music could not be analyzed as being in modes. but to argue the same for a key -- sure, one could argue that they do not fit neatly (and therefore cannot be analyzed as efficiently), but it's still absolutely possible.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:29 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by HamrockGuitar
Wow... talk about wasting time, this is truly futile. It also shows the academic snobbery of schooled musicians who just regurgitate what they are taught in Music Class and think they know it all. Classical Music Theory classes typically teach very briefly about Church Modes in Early Music and state that they are hardly used in modern music. I know this because I was studying Classical Guitar, Baroque Lute, AND Composition in college, along with Jazz Improvisation, when you were about two years old. I've also been a gigging musician and Music Instructor for the last 20 years and have used Modes extensively in all styles of music. Before you are "aggressive with your words" you may want to check your references so you don't end up sounding foolish. Go recheck your homework, Junior, and hand it in tomorrow... you haven't passed the class yet.

i'm going to dismiss everything you're saying simply based on your odd obsession with capitalizing things that aren't supposed to be capitalized - i don't quite understand how you can use the "i'm older than you and am therefore right" approach and write like this, since you should have been writing since i was nothing more than a naughty thought and a twinkle in my father's eye

now of course i'm not capitalizing anything, but that's because this discussion is simply not worth the extra wear on my shift key
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:20 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will42
Nothing sets off an argument in MT quite like modes.

TS, before you get anywhere near learning modes you need to get a complete basis in tonal theory. Which means keys, chords, and intervals.

If you want to hear actual modal music then your best bet is to listen to Palestrina, some Monteverdi and other early baroque composers.



To HamrockGuitar^, its posts like this, that don't offer any advice or knowledge, and are simply combative, that do not help anybody and lead to more argument. Why can't we be friends?


You Are Absolutely Right... These Threads Are Meant To Be Educational, not arguments. I apologize for stooping to a lower level. In rebuttal to the Clocks "argument" the tonic is Eb... the chords are Eb major, Bb minor, and F minor. In the key of Eb major the chords are Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb Cm Ddim. There is not a Bb minor chord in the key. In the key of Ab Major, the chords are Ab Bbm Cm Db Eb Fm Gdim. The Clocks chords fit into the key of Ab Major with Eb being the tonic. The Mode with the 5th scale degree as the tonic is the Mixolydian mode... or, if you prefer, the Eb Major scale with a b7th scale degree. C Ionian is the exact same scale AND key as C Major... if it has the same notes, key signature, and chords how is it different?

At Aeolian Wolf: I got a scholarship so I didn't pay for school, I've studied and played classical, jazz, blues, rock, flamenco, and even country, and I actually make a very good living working for myself teaching, producing, and recording music, which is very rare in this business. Wait until you get out into the real world, lad...
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:50 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenGuitar
What about music that's not in a key? Or music that is not descended from Western Classical Music or from Contemporary popular styles? Ever thought of that?

For every atonal piece there are probably hundreds of guitar chords with voice songs written. Non-western music isn't included because it isn't relevant to the discussion. Hell, they probably don't even use anything like what we think of as modes.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:56 AM   #30
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Aren't modes now a days just used in a way to explain accidentals in tonal music? That's my understanding atleast it's not actually used in a modal way anymore
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:38 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Fourfourforever
Aren't modes now a days just used in a way to explain accidentals in tonal music? That's my understanding atleast it's not actually used in a modal way anymore


no. tonal music doesn't need modes to explain accidentals. that's exactly why modes are obsolete - tonal music covers accidentals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamrockGuitar
You Are Absolutely Right... These Threads Are Meant To Be Educational, not arguments. I apologize for stooping to a lower level. In rebuttal to the Clocks "argument" the tonic is Eb... the chords are Eb major, Bb minor, and F minor. In the key of Eb major the chords are Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb Cm Ddim. There is not a Bb minor chord in the key. In the key of Ab Major, the chords are Ab Bbm Cm Db Eb Fm Gdim. The Clocks chords fit into the key of Ab Major with Eb being the tonic. The Mode with the 5th scale degree as the tonic is the Mixolydian mode... or, if you prefer, the Eb Major scale with a b7th scale degree. C Ionian is the exact same scale AND key as C Major... if it has the same notes, key signature, and chords how is it different?


if you can't see the difference between C ionian and C major, then i'm very skeptical as to how much training you've really had. if it was a lot, it was probably with teachers who misunderstood the concept themselves. and don't tell me there aren't -- because there are. and, oh, are there.

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Originally Posted by HamrockGuitar
At Aeolian Wolf: I got a scholarship so I didn't pay for school, I've studied and played classical, jazz, blues, rock, flamenco, and even country, and I actually make a very good living working for myself teaching, producing, and recording music, which is very rare in this business. Wait until you get out into the real world, lad...


i believe you - you definitely have the undeserved ego of a guitarist who does those things. dead giveaway. and i'm already in the real world - don't belittle me because you can't understand a simple concept and someone a third of your age has already gotten a handle on it. i've been proving old dogs wrong for years, and i'm not about to stop now.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:57 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
if you want, you're welcome to submit an example of music that doesn't fit in a key but DOES fit in a mode...though i think you'll have quite a bit of trouble with that (assuming you actually understand the concept of a key).

I understand the concept Key fine. The reason people can't refute your argument is because there is absolutely nothing wrong with it to begin with. Just because you can use the concept of tonality to explain a piece as long as it's not atonal does not mean that a piece cannot be modal. With keys and tonality, even in extremes cases where a piece is borderline atonal, you can still form chords and call everything else embellishing tones. Look at Berg's Sonate from Op.1, it's in the Key of B minor but you can barely hear it and there are enough embellishing tones to even make that ambiguous. (Granted although there are lots augmented 6th chords, and modulations) But just because nearly everything can be explained using Keys, DOES NOT mean modes are redundant. If they were, people wouldn't be using the concept. Ever heard of Messiaen?
I'm seriously considering whether you understand why modes are called modes? If you did you wouldn't need to say all this crap that isn't actually wrong.

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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
and it doesn't need to be descended from any particular style or idiom - there are only two types of music: tonal and atonal.

If you truly think that, you've got a very narrow minded view of what music is.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by GoldenGuitar
I understand the concept Key fine. The reason people can't refute your argument is because there is absolutely nothing wrong with it to begin with. Just because you can use the concept of tonality to explain a piece as long as it's not atonal does not mean that a piece cannot be modal. With keys and tonality, even in extremes cases where a piece is borderline atonal, you can still form chords and call everything else embellishing tones. Look at Berg's Sonate from Op.1, it's in the Key of B minor but you can barely hear it and there are enough embellishing tones to even make that ambiguous. (Granted although there are lots augmented 6th chords, and modulations) But just because nearly everything can be explained using Keys, DOES NOT mean modes are redundant. If they were, people wouldn't be using the concept. Ever heard of Messiaen?
I'm seriously considering whether you understand why modes are called modes? If you did you wouldn't need to say all this crap that isn't actually wrong.


then show me an example of why modes have any use -- one that cannot be explained as being in a key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenGuitar
If you truly think that, you've got a very narrow minded view of what music is.


again, put the **** up, or shut the **** up. you're a pretty funny guy if you expect me to take anything you say seriously if all you're going to do is put forth concepts and theories.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:40 PM   #34
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hey guys let's compare sausage and italian sausage
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:13 PM   #35
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I do like sausages.

What are MT's consensus on lamb and mint?
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:45 PM   #36
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just actually read through this and thought it'd be worth giving my honest opinion on a very controversial subject

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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
the person doing the name-calling has nothing else to fall back on.


i call people names even if i'm agreeing with them and respect them greatly

you poo-head
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:05 PM   #37
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I love a good old fashioned condescending-off.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:12 PM   #38
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I love a good old fashioned condescending-off.

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Old 11-20-2012, 05:21 PM   #39
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This thread only get's better. I congratulate Hamrock's persistence, although Aeolian's agility is something to be admired. Some beautiful manoeuvres from both combatants, if I had to I'd put my money on the wolf, but the more experienced one may yet surprise us.
to both of you.

edit: to get back on topic- I don't like it, I only like the taste of mint with sweets (ice cream, chocolate etc), don't like it with meat/potatoes.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:35 PM   #40
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what about coffee and chocolate? or even better, chiles and chocolate? they almost make me willing to eat sweets. and i made some dark chocolate with chipotle in it for a girl on valentine's one year and i got so laid so it has to be good
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