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Old 11-22-2012, 05:50 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by slipknot5678
I agree with this. I'm one out of probably six Americans (that has no real ethnic background with an indigenous nation) that does care. I think you named the biggest difference in your post- Mexico in many ways is the modern successor to the Mexica, just different (if I'm wrong feel free to tell me). Anyway, now's no the time for my rants.

In our history classes they've added twenty pages or so on pre-European colonial times in the textbooks, although you spend basically no time discussing it or really learning it. It's there just to be politically correct. With that said, I sort of understand why, since they are separate nations (who have been conquered), they weren't Americans, America is a Western nation, etc. I still think it should be considered important to learn, since whether I like to admit or not, despite nationalist movements, the natives are a part of American society, and many no longer care about their native identity and consider it a part of America only.

/sorry for going off topic. Blame the mod for getting me going.



no, you're right. Mexico right now is in many ways tied to the mexica civilization (+ a lot others), in terms of food, language, beliefs, etc. did you know that Mexico has 68 official 'native' languages listed in its constitution which hold the same validity as spanish? great stuff, beautiful languages in terms of phonetics and structure (nahuatl, for example, is an agglutinative language, similar to german in this aspect). my prehispanic lit teacher is probably the 2nd leading expert in terms of native civilization research (specifically, the aztec and mayan cultures) alive right now; he is, funnily, a completely french/european guy who studied at La Sorbonne.

here's a fun fact. the word 'michigan' (of native american origin, which means something like 'place of lakes') is directly related to the word 'michoacan' (the name of a mexican state, thousand of km away from Michigan), linguisticwise. how much of that are americans taught in schools though? i think the different visions we adopt when we look at this stuff, whether as mexicans or americans or whatever, is interesting. the continent of america wasn't politically divided as such before the european arrival. no mexico or states, just lots of civilizations in contact with each other. the english dealed with this stuff different than the way the spanish did.


i also have no real 'ethnic background with an indigenous nation'. i'm white and i've green eyes, lol.


and don't blame me. i didn't even consider this to be 'off-topic' for some reason. i mod Songwriting & Lyrics, not the Pit
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Old 11-22-2012, 05:58 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubs
no, you're right. Mexico right now is in many ways tied to the mexica civilization (+ a lot others), in terms of food, language, beliefs, etc. did you know that Mexico has 68 official 'native' languages listed in its constitution which hold the same validity as spanish? great stuff, beautiful languages in terms of phonetics and structure (nahuatl, for example, is an agglutinative language, similar to german in this aspect). my prehispanic lit teacher is probably the 2nd leading expert in terms of native civilization research (specifically, the aztec and mayan cultures) alive right now; he is, funnily, a completely french/european guy who studied at La Sorbonne.

here's a fun fact. the word 'michigan' (of native american origin, which means something like 'place of lakes') is directly related to the word 'michoacan' (the name of a mexican state), linguisticwise. how much of that are americans taught in schools though? i think the different visions we adopt when we look at this stuff, whether as mexicans or americans or whatever, is interesting. the continent of america wasn't politically divided as such before the european arrival. no mexico or states, just lots of civilizations in contact with each other. the english dealed with this stuff different than the way the spanish did.


i also have no real 'ethnic background with an indigenous nation'. i'm white and i've green eyes, lol.


and don't blame me. i didn't even consider this to be 'off-topic' for some reason. i am a Songwriting & Lyrics mod, not a Pit mod


I actually did know about the 68 official languages and that many of those customs have been passed on. If I'm not mistaken, Nahuatl is spoken by over a million and a half still. I'm downplaying my intelligence because I feel weird knowing things some of these things about Mexico when I'm not Mexican. >_>

Regarding the stuff about America, I knew about many states being named after native languages but not the specifics. It is sad how colonialism divided everything, and what's interesting is I have more knowledge on the Mexica, etc. than most native nations in the modern U.S. It shows which country values which more, that's for sure. Here in America people tend to throw them into one category; as one 'native American' country that was conquered, then assume that the 'native Mexicans' and 'native Canadians' were also separate countries with no ties to each other.
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:35 AM   #23
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To contradict myself, all this talk about Mexican culture and predating American culture...

Does anyone know about what predates that Mexican culture?

We all seem to put passion in a specific culture or date when it all goes waaaaaaaaaaay back to prehistoric man.

What makes one culture "mean more" than others? Who cares what something means in a specific language when, if we even had the ability which we do not, everything seems to ultimately mean something else or something similar in another culture.

What makes "this culture" more relevant than another? Why are we not talking and debating cave art and SEVERLY ancient cultures?

Well... Because those have died out and honestly are irrelevant in modern times.

Other cultures might not be... Yet...
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:43 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by CodySG
To contradict myself, all this talk about Mexican culture and predating American culture...

Does anyone know about what predates that Mexican culture?

We all seem to put passion in a specific culture or date when it all goes waaaaaaaaaaay back to prehistoric man.

What makes one culture "mean more" than others? Who cares what something means in a specific language when, if we even had the ability which we do not, everything seems to ultimately mean something else or something similar in another culture.

What makes "this culture" more relevant than another? Why are we not talking and debating cave art and SEVERLY ancient cultures?

Well... Because those have died out and honestly are irrelevant in modern times.

Other cultures might not be... Yet...


Human culture in general was under-developed then. It didn't necessarily die out, it evolved, which is what is going to happen with all modern cultures. I will admit I'm not too educated on prehistoric human history or culture though.

I'm not sure if you're implying this or not, but I'll explain why I care about 'irrelevant native cultures'. They're not irrelevant; they're still around. They are still being forced to assimilate into something that isn't theirs, and their culture is also relevant. Some cultures are more influential, but none is more 'relevant' in the sense that one matters more. That is partially why I care.

Edit: TS, I apologise for derailing your thread.

Last edited by slipknot5678 : 11-22-2012 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:14 AM   #25
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Coming from a fifth generation removed from a pure Native American culture, I do know that a lot of native cultures are completely irrelevant these days.

The only reason I don't receive Native American benefits is because my great great grandmother didn't sign the Dawes because she didn't trust the white man.

Sadly, she inadvertently screwed her family but hey... This was a time when the white man was public enemy number one.

So believe me, I absolutely "care" about native and dying culture.

And it IS dying.

Assimilation means changing your culture to be more cooperative with another. So it IS dying.

To speak Cherokee or Choctaw is an anomaly these days, when a few hundred years ago that was all the people around here spoke.

Honestly, it hurts me to know I know so little about my heritage. So little about the language. I can only speak a few broken sentences in Choctaw and that was taught to me by a non family member.

So yes... I am sorry... But it IS dying out.

Few people in America know their heritage, and I would bet money that the top four are Irish, Scottish, German, and Native American.

Whether or not they know anything from any of these countries is up to their parents and family.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:17 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by CodySG
stuff about Native Americans

hey dude come check out the Native American Thread i made. i am an enrolled member and have lived on the reservation my whole life. if you have any questions or anything, maybe you just want to discuss the culture, come check it out. or even send me a PM. oh yeah, Happy Thanksgiving or as we call it Happy Assimilation Day.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:28 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by CodySG
*another long post I don't want to directly quote because it would take up so much space*


Unfortunately you're right. But there's still some hope. There has been a large revival in indigenous thought, or at least in a few larger nations (like the Navajo and Lakotah). The nations can still exist even without their strong linguistic heritage (See: Scotland, Ireland, the Mexica cultures we discussed earlier, it goes on). For the smaller tribes there is no hope but if we just give up completely several nations will just be forever forgotten and America will be forced to be ashamed of its very existence forever.

/idealistic post
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:30 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by slipknot5678
America will be forced to be ashamed of its very existence forever.

/idealistic post


they justify by naming sports teams after racist portrayals of us.
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Like I said, I hope it's just the farts.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:34 AM   #29
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Red Skins FTW!!!!!

But seriously though, I will take you up on that offer man! Plan on reading the thread tonight then I'll probably pop in there tonight or tomorrow!

It does make me pleased to know people still care about pre-America. I mean, I'm not going to lie I am a patriot and America fick yeah!!! But it is annoying sometimes dealing with those types of folks
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:00 AM   #30
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It's been about 7 years since I was in a history lesson but I remember something about WW2 and not much else.
I have a genuine interest in history (and basically everything really), but I also have an aversion to walls of text and mind-numbingly dull things, so I slept through most of it.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:14 AM   #31
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Naturally, the focus lies on Dutch history, but our history classes are alot more worldly than American classes.


Well, I don't know what you think we learn in America, but in my school (a public school), we had to take a lot of world history as well. So yes, we focus on the entire world. The biggest emphasis however seems to be on Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome, China, Spain, France, and the UK. Which then leads into American history for the next year of school. We always switched between the two since 5th grade.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:52 AM   #32
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Basically, in Australian schools, Australian history consists of 1788 (the first fleet) to the present day, there's not really any Aboriginal (indigenous Australian) history to think of. I mean, they'd been here for 40 000 years, and they invented nought but the boomerang. So, I mean, yeah. Not much history for Australia. Sorry


Did you fall asleep from year 8 to year 12?
Man, we had Aboriginal history crammed down our throats. Everything from the instant genocide that occurred when the first fleet arrived, to the Stolen Generations to the 1967 referendum and everything in between them.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:54 AM   #33
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Did you fall asleep from year 8 to year 12?
Man, we had Aboriginal history crammed down our throats. Everything from the instant genocide that occurred when the first fleet arrived, to the Stolen Generations to the 1967 referendum and everything in between them.












OT: Uk history is full of the Tudors. NZ is full of the Treaty of Waitangi.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:55 AM   #34
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Indian history sucks.

Guess why?
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:07 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by shattamakar
Indian history sucks.

Guess why?


Indian? because of red dots?

no, actually, because you as a person, suck donkey balls for quarters...
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Like I said, I hope it's just the farts.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:17 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Harvey Swick
Indian? because of red dots?

no, actually, because you as a person, suck donkey balls for quarters...


Quaint, Harvey.

No, its actually because we are made to study all the way back to the pre-Aryan invasion days in an unbroken line.

I wonder how the British teach colonialism in schools. We were taught they came to steal culture.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:18 AM   #37
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I never took history in high school, so I don't know how it is there, but in grade 1-9:

They start with like a brief something about the last ice age to the "viking age", and then a little bit about vikings + medieval history, and then start for real when Gustav Vasa became king in like 1500(basically when the "modern" sweden was founded). Then it's fairly detailed up until today, it's mostly european history with a focus on sweden, european history includes the new world and a bit of asia btw, it's what europeans did, not where the things happened.

And the things talked about is usually how people lived and so on, not so much wars and kings, but still a bit too much about kings here in sweden.



and yeah, the bits that are put into most detail is usually the 17th and 18th century, since that's when sweden actually did anything significant



Also, we do basically all of this up until 6th grade, then we start again in 7th, but spend most of our time on modern 19th/20th century history, which is the important stuff anyway.
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Last edited by flxjhnlrssn : 11-22-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:49 AM   #38
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Canadian history is shorter than USA history. I just had to do one HS credit. Got it and never thought about that waste-of-time subject again. I mean, if I want to know the history then I'll google the event. There is no point in memorizing it. No understanding is required. I can just jump in anywhere and start reading. History is near the top of the list in the waste of time and money degrees.




You really couldn't be more wrong.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:51 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by CodySG
Few people in America know their heritage, and I would bet money that the top four are Irish, Scottish, German, and Native American.

Whether or not they know anything from any of these countries is up to their parents and family.

Fun fact:

American population ancestry (% of population):

German 15%
Irish 11%
African American 9%
English 9%
American 7%
Mexican 6%
Italian 6%
Polish 3%
French 3%
American Indian 3%
Scottish 2%
Dutch 2%
Norwegian 2%
Scotch-Irish 1%
Swedish 1%



Yeah, I'm bored
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:06 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by shattamakar
Quaint, Harvey.

No, its actually because we are made to study all the way back to the pre-Aryan invasion days in an unbroken line.

I wonder how the British teach colonialism in schools. We were taught they came to steal culture.


Colonialism wasn't taught when I was at school. I'll ask my brother when he gets back whether he's been taught. He's a decade younger than me, so it may have snuck onto the syllabus.
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