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View Poll Results: Which is the morally correct option?
It is right to kill the one for the five in both situations, but I could not push the fat man 49 44.55%
It is right to kill the one for the five, and I could push the fat man (psychopath) 41 37.27%
It is not right to kill the one for the five in either situation 20 18.18%
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:42 PM   #41
Macabre_Turtle
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
If I see a man smoking a don't swat the cigarette out of his mouth and he later dies of lung cancer have I murdered him?


The difference is that you know that this man chose to smoke the cigarette. You don't know why any of these people are stuck on the train rails. Presumably, they did not choose to be there.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:44 PM   #42
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So if you're in a hospital waiting room and they need a set of organs to save five patients it's acceptable for them to run in and vivisect you for them?

In fact, lets change the original scenario. You're a fat guy - do you jump in front of the train and save everyone or not?


Well... I'd be pretty ****ing upset, but I guess I'd understand.


If I'm the fat guy, and presumably for the sake of these scenarios a fat guy is enough to stop a train (ridiculous, I know)... no, I doubt I would do it. It would be the right thing to do, but unless maybe I know the people on the tracks, I don't think I would be that selfless.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:44 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macabre_Turtle
The difference is that you know that this man chose to smoke the cigarette. You don't know why any of these people are stuck on the train rails. Presumably, they did not choose to be there.


I don't know that they aren't there by choice, and I know certainly that the fat guy isn't there to act as a buffer in case there's some calamitous situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macabre_Turtle
Well... I'd be pretty ****ing upset, but I guess I'd understand.

If I'm the fat guy, and presumably for the sake of these scenarios a fat guy is enough to stop a train (ridiculous, I know)... no, I doubt I would do it. It would be the right thing to do, but unless maybe I know the people on the tracks, I don't think I would be that selfless.


You're lying, but (un)luckily the situation isn't hypothetical: the medical system is low on organs, so go take out a donor card and then kill yourself - you'll be killing one to save quite a lot, almost certainly double figures of people. Off you go.

In fact, you should probably kill everyone you know and meet who has a donor card, that way you'll save hundreds of people by killing maybe twenty.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:45 PM   #44
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So if you're in a hospital waiting room and they need a set of organs to save five patients it's acceptable for them to run in and vivisect you for them?

In fact, lets change the original scenario. You're a fat guy - do you jump in front of the train and save everyone or not?

It's a completely different story when it's about sacrificing yourself. Unless of course I know I'm going to die anyways, and by dieing a bit quicker I can save other people. Also, how ****ing fat do you have to be to noticeably slow down a ****ing train? There is no situation ever in the history and future where that would ever, could ever happen.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:47 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Macabre_Turtle
Well... I'd be pretty ****ing upset, but I guess I'd understand.

There are many more than five people currently waiting on life-saving organ transplants that you could provide. What are you waiting for? Rush to your emergency room, flash your donor card and top yourself in the least destructive way you can.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:50 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
I don't know that they aren't there by choice, and I know certainly that the fat guy isn't there to act as a buffer in case there's some calamitous situation.


So you see five people lying on a train track and your first assumption is "they're probably there on purpose?" Nonsense. That's a poor excuse to not save them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Hart
You're lying, but (un)luckily the situation isn't hypothetical: the medical system is low on organs, so go take out a donor card and then kill yourself - you'll be killing one to save quite a lot, almost certainly double figures of people. Off you go.

In fact, you should probably kill everyone you know and meet who has a donor card, that way you'll save hundreds of people by killing maybe twenty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra150
There are many more than five people currently waiting on life-saving organ transplants that you could provide. What are you waiting for? Rush to your emergency room, flash your donor card and top yourself in the least destructive way you can.



I said I'd understand. I didn't say I'd volunteer. Try reading comprehension before you go telling people to kill themselves.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:51 PM   #47
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In fact, you should probably kill everyone you know and meet who has a donor card, that way you'll save hundreds of people by killing maybe twenty.

Define save. People who undergo organ transplants often dont survive the operation, and just as often die very quickly after a couple of years or even months because their body rejects the organ. Your scenario is ridiculous because you're killing people to potentially save the lives of people in the future, instead of making an instantanious decision of "Okay, it's either these 20 people, or these 300 people who die now. One group is going to die, now I have to decide which one", or "I can kill this one guy right now and save a dozen other people".
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:51 PM   #48
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I guess the question is do you want to kill somebody or let people die.
Because other wise its a pretty easy question.

I`d save the five people though.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:52 PM   #49
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There is no situation ever in the history and future where that would ever, could ever happen.

Apart from how in the future rich people will be able to upgrade their outdated organic bodies to more durable titanium exoskeletons.

More to the point - if you chuck a large object in the way of this train, and it is able to immediately stop it, has no one considered the damage that this will do to the train and it's passengers? What if it derails, or catches fire, or tips over down a deep ditch?

How would a psychopath feel about letting 5 people die in order to save 1000 people from moderate whiplash?
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:53 PM   #50
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I would pull the lever, but if I could only sacrifice myself to save five, I wouldn't.

So basically I'm a selfish ****.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:54 PM   #51
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Apart from how in the future rich people will be able to upgrade their outdated organic bodies to more durable titanium exoskeletons.

Then surely the people on the tracks are doing nothing more than taking a nap in the wrong place? Train hits them, bounces off their titanium exoskeletons, lands on the tracks and drives off.

All the world's problems would be solved by durable titanium exoskeletons.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:55 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Hydra150
Apart from how in the future rich people will be able to upgrade their outdated organic bodies to more durable titanium exoskeletons.

More to the point - if you chuck a large object in the way of this train, and it is able to immediately stop it, has no one considered the damage that this will do to the train and it's passengers? What if it derails, or catches fire, or tips over down a deep ditch?

How would a psychopath feel about letting 5 people die in order to save 1000 people from moderate whiplash?




I had actually considered this (the safety of the train passengers) long after posting the thread. I guess since the video doesn't mention that as part of the equation, we ignore it for the sake of the debate. Pretend it's an automated train shipping cargo with no passengers.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:56 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by CoreysMonster
Define save. People who undergo organ transplants often dont survive the operation, and just as often die very quickly after a couple of years or even months because their body rejects the organ. Your scenario is ridiculous because you're killing people to potentially save the lives of people in the future, instead of making an instantanious decision of "Okay, it's either these 20 people, or these 300 people who die now. One group is going to die, now I have to decide which one", or "I can kill this one guy right now and save a dozen other people".


Given the number of things a donor body can be used for you are guaranteed to save at least two people by killing one. The situation is no different in the long run.

And the train situation is not 'Okay, one person or five, pick', it's 'These five people are going to die through an accident, or I can murder this one person to prevent it'. The only reason people find it acceptable is because pushing someone in front of train doesn't require any blood to get on your hands.

Fine, lets change it again. Exactly the same situation - train, five people, fat guy - but this time you have half an hour to choose. You can't get the five people off the rails, or contact the train, but there's a large amount of rope nearby, so you can tie the fat person to the track securely enough to definitely stop the train. Do you laboriously spend half an hour tying the sobbing, whimpering person to the track in order to save the other people?

This situation is no different from the original in any way that matters, but are you going to do it? If you are then you're a monster.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:03 PM   #54
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I'd jump on the rails myself, you sick shits


loljk I'm not fat enough.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:04 PM   #55
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Call it selfishness if you want, but I don't consider not killing myself to be killing potential organ receivers in the same way I consider not killing the one person on the tracks (forget the fat guy situation, I think I've already said I wouldn't do that for the reasons stated in the video) to be killing the five.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:06 PM   #56
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Given the number of things a donor body can be used for you are guaranteed to save at least two people by killing one. The situation is no different in the long run.

And the train situation is not 'Okay, one person or five, pick', it's 'These five people are going to die through an accident, or I can murder this one person to prevent it'. The only reason people find it acceptable is because pushing someone in front of train doesn't require any blood to get on your hands.

Fine, lets change it again. Exactly the same situation - train, five people, fat guy - but this time you have half an hour to choose. You can't get the five people off the rails, or contact the train, but there's a large amount of rope nearby, so you can tie the fat person to the track securely enough to definitely stop the train. Do you laboriously spend half an hour tying the sobbing, whimpering person to the track in order to save the other people?

This situation is no different from the original in any way that matters, but are you going to do it? If you are then you're a monster.

That's the entire point of the thought experiment, that people won't hesitate to flick a switch to make a choice to save more people based on numbers, but that actually killing the person yourself is a much more difficult choice. What exactly are you trying to prove here? You're just repeating what the guy in the video said.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:08 PM   #57
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That's the entire point of the thought experiment, that people won't hesitate to flick a switch to make a choice to save more people based on numbers, but that actually killing the person yourself is a much more difficult choice. What exactly are you trying to prove here? You're just repeating what the guy in the video said.


I'm reiterating the point to show that people who say 'Yeah, I'd just kill the fattie' are ******s.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:08 PM   #58
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I'm reiterating the point to show that people who say 'Yeah, I'd just kill the fattie' are psychopaths.

ftfy
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:09 PM   #59
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ftfy


Psychopaths are emotionally ******ed.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:10 PM   #60
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I'm reiterating the point to show that people who say 'Yeah, I'd just kill the fattie' are ******s.


I'd say it's morally correct to kill the fatty for the same reason that flicking the switch would be, but I admit that I wouldn't do it.
I think the people posting, "yeah, kill the fatty" are probably in the same boat. They're more considering what the right thing to do would be, rather than what they would actually do.
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