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View Poll Results: Which is the morally correct option?
It is right to kill the one for the five in both situations, but I could not push the fat man 49 44.55%
It is right to kill the one for the five, and I could push the fat man (psychopath) 41 37.27%
It is not right to kill the one for the five in either situation 20 18.18%
Voters: 110. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-25-2012, 01:43 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by whywefight
This thread needs a poll.


You're right. I'll do that.

EDIT: I forgot how to add a poll
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:46 PM   #82
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Here's another look at it, if you flip the switch, and the authorities get involved, you're on the hook for murder.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:47 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Macabre_Turtle
Now, do you simply think that it would be the right thing to do? Or do you actually think that you would do it? There is a difference...

As the video points out, many of us will agree that it is the right thing to do, but few of us actually would do it.

Consider this - if you see the situation, ignore it and decide to do nothing at all, you've just killed six people. If you make a decision either way, you've saved at least some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Hart
The death of people who don't get organs in time is certain and unavoidable. The only situation is only forced if you decide to take action, if you don't then you are merely a spectator with absolutely no reason to feel guilty about it.

If you want a forced situation, my organ argument is based on a rival to the train argument which I adumbrated earlier in the thread: there are five people in a hospital who will die in an hour if they don't get the organs they need, and in the waiting room is a man of the right blood type who could be easily harvested from. Do you kill the man in order to save the five? This is absolutely no different to the train argument; it simply removes the fact that in the train argument people can cower behind the 'yucky' side of killing someone - pushing someone into a train doesn't seem quite the same as cutting them up for their organs.

Choice is the key factor, and the choice is not 'kill one or kill five', it's 'kill one or accept that five people are going to die through no fault of your own'.

If you won't make a decision on the fly because you don't know someone's medical history, blood type, and a viable list of people needing donors for specific organs in the nearby vicinity, there's a real problem here.

And it is one-hundred percent different, because you're adding an extra variable in the donor situation that is ridiculous in pertinence to the basic question that was asked in OP. That's like me saying "Oh, well would you kill the five if you knew that the one was going to put poison in candy fifteen years down the road, and that it was going to be passed out, but depending on how you killed them, it would only affect, potentially, one out of every fifteen people?"

It's useless rationalization geared towards an attempt to feel less guilty, when in fact it's just wasting time, in which your non-action is going to cost ALL of them their lives. And here's the real kicker - people die every day through no fault of your own, so there's not really even a need for you to rationalize your guilt-free mindset, unless you walk around perpetually perturbed that people are, every second, dying.

Save the lives you can when you can, instead of worrying about reading the future, because nobody knows what your actions will trigger; be they derailing a speeding train, or bumping into someone in line at the supermarket. Seeing the right course and ignoring it is cowardly, no matter what the excuse, and if living in a bubble, too idealistically afraid to do anything to aid others is the answer, count me out.

Living life in a constant state of inaction for being too afraid of absolute consequences that can't even be counted on is a terrible way to live.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:47 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Macabre_Turtle
I forgot how to add a poll



I haven't done a poll in half a year probably, but I think the buttons on the bottom of the page
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:50 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by whywefight
I haven't done a poll in half a year probably, but I think the buttons on the bottom of the page

yeah its in the bottom left under "Subscribe to this thread"
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:50 PM   #86
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Is there an option to separate the train and kill all six of them? Don't want to be unfair to the one person.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:50 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by strat0blaster
If you won't make a decision on the fly because you don't know someone's medical history, blood type, and a viable list of people needing donors for specific organs in the nearby vicinity, there's a real problem here.

And it is one-hundred percent different, because you're adding an extra variable in the donor situation that is ridiculous in pertinence to the basic question that was asked in OP. That's like me saying "Oh, well would you kill the five if you knew that the one was going to put poison in candy fifteen years down the road, and that it was going to be passed out, but depending on how you killed them, it would only affect, potentially, one out of every fifteen people?"

It's useless rationalization geared towards an attempt to feel less guilty, when in fact it's just wasting time, in which your non-action is going to cost ALL of them their lives. And here's the real kicker - people die every day through no fault of your own, so there's not really even a need for you to rationalize your guilt-free mindset, unless you walk around perpetually perturbed that people are, every second, dying.

Save the lives you can when you can, instead of worrying about reading the future, because nobody knows what your actions will trigger; be they derailing a speeding train, or bumping into someone in line at the supermarket. Seeing the right course and ignoring it is cowardly, no matter what the excuse, and if living in a bubble, too idealistically afraid to do anything to aid others is the answer, count me out.


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Old 11-25-2012, 01:50 PM   #88
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EDIT: I forgot how to add a poll

you need to chose to add a poll when you first create the thread iirc
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:52 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macabre_Turtle
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUsGDVOCLVQ

I've felt the need to bring the shitstorm going on in the comments of this video to the beautiful innocent safe haven of the pit.

Ignore the concept of what this guy says a sane person or a psychopath would do in this situation. Discuss what you would do.

EDIT: TL;DW version
Scenario = Train headed to kill five trapped people. You can pull a lever to redirect the train towards one trapped person. Would you do it?
Upping the ante
Scenario = Train is headed to kill five trapped people. You can throw one fat guy on the rails that can derail the train (unrealistic, but for the sake of the argument, assume that would work) saving the five. Would you do it?

Another common psychopath test i learned in abnormal psych is, a woman is at a funeral and meets a sexually attractive man. The next day she murders her family, why did she do it?
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:54 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Cloudkicker
Another common psychopath test i learned in abnormal psych is, a woman is at a funeral and meets a sexually attractive man. The next day she murders her family, why did she do it?


So he'd show up again.


show


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra150
you need to chose to add a poll when you first create the thread iirc


No, you can add one later

Quote:
Originally Posted by strat0blaster
Save the lives you can when you can, instead of worrying about reading the future, because nobody knows what your actions will trigger; be they derailing a speeding train, or bumping into someone in line at the supermarket. Seeing the right course and ignoring it is cowardly, no matter what the excuse, and if living in a bubble, too idealistically afraid to do anything to aid others is the answer, count me out.

Living life in a constant state of inaction for being too afraid of absolute consequences that can't even be counted on is a terrible way to live.


I'm not totally convinced by strat's argument, but these two paragraphs are brilliant.

Last edited by whywefight : 11-25-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:54 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Hydra150
you need to chose to add a poll when you first create the thread iirc

it is possible to add one after making the thread though.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:54 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Cloudkicker
Another common psychopath test i learned in abnormal psych is, a woman is at a funeral and meets a sexually attractive man. The next day she murders her family, why did she do it?

She didn't, the sexually attractive man did. He didn't really love her, he was just using her to get close to the people that ruined his family's business - the woman's parents!

Quote:
Originally Posted by whywefight
So he'd show up again.

Wow, that makes way more sense than my suggestion...
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:56 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strat0blaster
If you won't make a decision on the fly because you don't know someone's medical history, blood type, and a viable list of people needing donors for specific organs in the nearby vicinity, there's a real problem here.


Medical data can be looked up in a fraction of a second. Assuming that the person in the waiting room is a match is no different to assuming that the fat person will stop the train.

Quote:
And it is one-hundred percent different, because you're adding an extra variable in the donor situation that is ridiculous in pertinence to the basic question that was asked in OP. That's like me saying "Oh, well would you kill the five if you knew that the one was going to put poison in candy fifteen years down the road, and that it was going to be passed out, but depending on how you killed them, it would only affect, potentially, one out of every fifteen people?"


I have literally no idea what you are talking about here.

And I haven't added any extra variables - I've simply changed the action from pushing a fat guy to dissecting a patient. Both situations require things that have to be assumed, the fat guy has to be enough to stop the train, the patient has to have the right blood type etc.

Quote:
It's useless rationalization geared towards an attempt to feel less guilty, when in fact it's just wasting time, in which your non-action is going to cost ALL of them their lives. And here's the real kicker - people die every day through no fault of your own, so there's not really even a need for you to rationalize your guilt-free mindset, unless you walk around perpetually perturbed that people are, every second, dying.


Again, white noise.

Not saving a persons life is not the same as killing them.

Quote:
Save the lives you can when you can, instead of worrying about reading the future, because nobody knows what your actions will trigger; be they derailing a speeding train, or bumping into someone in line at the supermarket. Seeing the right course and ignoring it is cowardly, no matter what the excuse, and if living in a bubble, too idealistically afraid to do anything to aid others is the answer, count me out.


And the right course if you are utilitarian, given the state of our medical system, is to get a donor card and immediately off yourself. You would be saving lives where you can, and ignoring this would be cowardly and hypocritical.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:56 PM   #94
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I say thought experiments of this nature are FUCKING stupid. Why? Because they're always designed to put you in the position of considering morality in an odd situation, and it's just unrealistic.

Plus, people always act like they're all philosophical and shit for thinking of these examples. I'm sorry, but it's overdone and therefore lame.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:57 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I say thought experiments of this nature are FUCKING stupid. Why? Because they're always designed to put you in the position of considering morality in an odd situation, and it's just unrealistic.

Plus, people always act like they're all philosophical and shit for thinking of these examples. I'm sorry, but it's overdone and therefore lame.


Thought experiments are unrealistic? How insightful. Thank you.

EDIT: Poll is up. I like to keep as few options as possible, to keep it easier to analyze the data, but the options are enough to cover everybody's opinions.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:58 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I say thought experiments of this nature are FUCKING stupid. Why? Because they're always designed to put you in the position of considering morality in an odd situation, and it's just unrealistic.

Plus, people always act like they're all philosophical and shit for thinking of these examples. I'm sorry, but it's overdone and therefore lame.


It's done a fantastic job of exposing all of the psychopaths in the pit though.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:58 PM   #97
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Okay.

There's five people in hospital, all will die in an hour if they don't get the organ they need. One needs a heart, another a liver, two need kidneys and one needs a major skin graft. In the waiting room there is a healthy man of the correct blood type who's waiting to pick up a prescription for athletes foot. Do you kill him and save the other five?


Better question: Who the hell goes to the hospital for athlete's foot?
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:59 PM   #98
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There's a difference here from "what's morally right" to "what's less morally evil".
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:59 PM   #99
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Thought experiments are unrealistic? How insightful. Thank you.

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Old 11-25-2012, 01:59 PM   #100
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Better question: Who the hell goes to the hospital for athlete's foot?


My local hospital has an integrated pharmaceutical collection point.
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