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Old 11-28-2012, 02:16 PM   #41
astholkohtz
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i had that suspect
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:05 PM   #42
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I take everything I do serious. When I played the trumpet I had to learn all of the scales and arpeggios, slurs, intervals, etc. Without that foundation I would not have been able to play the trumpet as well as I did (eight years), nor would I have been able to consider a career in music (got sidetracked and went another direction, getting back into music some 30 years later).

While picking up a guitar today I perused the various educational resources available and found a series of books for guitar entitled 'The Guitar Grimoire.' There are about five or six rather voluminous books in this series on a variety of subjects. The book in this series that was handed to me by one of the clerks I was talking to at the time on the subject of guitar education and learning was 'The Guitar Grimoire: Scales & Modes.' It's 211 pages, 12" tall by 9" wide, and while the text (where there is text) is about 12 point type, the various fretboard diagrams are small. I knew it was the book for me when I saw the Circle of Fifths on its cover.

There isn't a scale or mode in the world that isn't covered in this book. This is where I start my guitar education. The first 20 pages are general explanation and the next 191 are nothing but scales and modes in every variety known to mankind. Major, minor, Hungarian, Persian, you name it, it's in there.

This specific resource is exactly what I've been looking for insofar as learning the guitar, the fingerboard (we call the violin fingerboard, is the guitar a fingerboard or fretboard or does it matter?), music theory, etc. As I learn scales, modes, and theory on the guitar, I will also be building upon the physical hands on technique (that is to say, 'my chops') as I'll be playing these scales and learning the notes and their location on the fretboard, their relationship to each other, each scale's relationship to each other, chord progressions, and more repeatedly for years. How can one not develop chops doing that?

Without that foundation one is merely a player and not a musician. I'm seeking the total package that will allow me to play with anyone, anywhere. One can't do that without a solid basis in music theory which begins with scales, arpeggios, etc. This will carry over to all instruments as well as writing and arranging assuming that you wanted to branch out beyond just playing the guitar.

The Guitar Grimoire: A Compendium of Formulas for Guitar Scales and Modes $20.84

Last edited by ConcertShooter : 11-28-2012 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:26 PM   #43
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I've actually found that scales improve my picking and finger dexterity aside from what has already been mentioned here. I know they're relied upon more from a theory standpoint-as they should be...but they can/will improve one's technique as well.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:33 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by J_W
Wait, so unless you know theory you can't be a musician?


You can be a player, even a great guitar player without a solid foundation in music theory, but you will not be a musician by any means. You could very well save someone's life if you know basic first aid and CPR, but knowing basic first aid and using CPR to save someone's life won't make you a doctor.

A musician is the total package. A player is a technician. Two wholly separate animals.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:36 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Simper-Yut
I've actually found that scales improve my picking and finger dexterity aside from what has already been mentioned here. I know they're relied upon more from a theory standpoint-as they should be...but they can/will improve one's technique as well.


The Guitar Grimoire: Picking Exercises


(No, I receive no kick backs from the author or publisher of these books. Just know an excellent resource when I see one. I'm sure there are others that I will also pick up along my musical journey and if there are some that I should know about please inform me. Thanks!)

Last edited by ConcertShooter : 11-28-2012 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:21 AM   #46
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concert shooter thanks a lot, i'll definitely have a look at that!

that's a musician: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/musician

there's no need to redefine the word just to describe what a good musician is to you.

a good musician to me is some dude who writes good music. like the ramones, or paul gilbert. i wouldn't care less about their theoretical background.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:16 AM   #47
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One friggin question:
Who the hell was the genius that stated learning theory = scales?

Once one is done with understanding and hearing the difference between a minor and a major key, there are thousand of more productive things one could be doing than learning scales with all kind of stupid names to them.

Scales are sometimes good to practice fingerings and to train your ear, but if you already have good technique, you are wasting your time.

Just to reiterate: memorizing scale patterns has little to do with music theory.
And the G-Grimoire is just a compilation of wanking patterns that any decent musician would be able to name and understand without ever having taken a look at that book.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:29 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Slashiepie
One friggin question:
Who the hell was the genius that stated learning theory = scales?


Scales are but one part of music theory. The most basic part.

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Originally Posted by Slashiepie
And the G-Grimoire is just a compilation of wanking patterns that any decent musician would be able to name and understand without ever having taken a look at that book.


I don't play guitar and don't know the finger board. I need a book at this point as I can't afford violin and guitar lessons.

What's the general age on these forums when most posters outgrow the name calling and childish ad hominem attacks?
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:36 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ConcertShooter
I take everything I do serious. When I played the trumpet I had to learn all of the scales and arpeggios, slurs, intervals, etc. Without that foundation I would not have been able to play the trumpet as well as I did (eight years), nor would I have been able to consider a career in music (got sidetracked and went another direction, getting back into music some 30 years later).

While picking up a guitar today I perused the various educational resources available and found a series of books for guitar entitled 'The Guitar Grimoire.' There are about five or six rather voluminous books in this series on a variety of subjects. The book in this series that was handed to me by one of the clerks I was talking to at the time on the subject of guitar education and learning was 'The Guitar Grimoire: Scales & Modes.' It's 211 pages, 12" tall by 9" wide, and while the text (where there is text) is about 12 point type, the various fretboard diagrams are small. I knew it was the book for me when I saw the Circle of Fifths on its cover.

There isn't a scale or mode in the world that isn't covered in this book. This is where I start my guitar education. The first 20 pages are general explanation and the next 191 are nothing but scales and modes in every variety known to mankind. Major, minor, Hungarian, Persian, you name it, it's in there.

This specific resource is exactly what I've been looking for insofar as learning the guitar, the fingerboard (we call the violin fingerboard, is the guitar a fingerboard or fretboard or does it matter?), music theory, etc. As I learn scales, modes, and theory on the guitar, I will also be building upon the physical hands on technique (that is to say, 'my chops') as I'll be playing these scales and learning the notes and their location on the fretboard, their relationship to each other, each scale's relationship to each other, chord progressions, and more repeatedly for years. How can one not develop chops doing that?

Without that foundation one is merely a player and not a musician. I'm seeking the total package that will allow me to play with anyone, anywhere. One can't do that without a solid basis in music theory which begins with scales, arpeggios, etc. This will carry over to all instruments as well as writing and arranging assuming that you wanted to branch out beyond just playing the guitar.

The Guitar Grimoire: A Compendium of Formulas for Guitar Scales and Modes $20.84

Sadly that is one of the most awful books in the history of guitar education.

probably better off in MT too
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:45 AM   #50
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My band director was a musician, a professional. He played saxophones for some of the biggest names in music in the 1960s when they toured. And could he play the sax. He also knew exactly what part we in the trumpet section were to play as well as the bassoon section.

If ever there was a conflict or some dissonance between a particular section of our band he knew it because he (and we) could hear it, and he knew how to correct it because he knew music theory. All theory, not just scales.

Music theory, along with his sax chops, gave him the foundation to lead a band and not just our high school band, but professional backing bands for B.B. King, Aretha Franklin and the like in the 1960s. He was a musician, a professional, which separates his type from the players who are mere technicians.

No one is forcing anyone to learn scales, arpeggios, chord progressions, music arrangement, or music theory. Everyone is free to revel in their ignorance if they so desire. That's what makes America great, or not so great depending on your disposition.

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Old 11-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #51
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My God Steven, what have you done? This thread was already a shit storm, and then you throw it into the den of shit storms. No good will come of this, you mark my words!
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:49 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven seagull
Sadly that is one of the most awful books in the history of guitar education.

probably better off in MT too


Is there a better resource? I asked in my original post in this thread that if there were other books that people please advise me of them. I can take this one back if there is a better resource on scales, modes, etc. Please provide me with other resources that will assist me in coming up to speed on music theory as it relates to the guitar finger board. Thanks in advance.

In passing, it's just a reference. A tool. It's not an all to end all type of book. So if there is a better place to start aside from Mel Bay Guitar Book 1 let me know.

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Old 11-29-2012, 11:33 AM   #53
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^If that book is anything at all like the Hal Leonard scale book then yea it's pretty much a waste. Over a 100 pages of diagrams showing the same freakin pattern marketed to suckers who don't know any better, I know because I was one too when I started learning theory.

Only good parts of that book were where it told you how to build the major scale and the chart naming the notes on the fretboard, conviently located at the front and back of the book respectively.

To the OP, The more I learn about theory, and play guitar the more I find myself wondering the same thing, except in my case it's more of a, "Why did I spend so much time drilling this stuff into my head?" The easiest way I have found to comprehend this stuff is to learn the major scale and consider everything else as an alteration to it(You know, the way scale spellings work.) No modes, no weird names, just major & minor based off of the keys. If you come across a non-diatonic chord or accidental note then you just alter what you play to account for it, no reason to add silly ancient names to it.

Like the regs here in MT always preach, just because a note isn't "in key" doesn't mean that it can't be played, those are just the notes used in the diatonic harmony, which isn't always used in a song. Remember, you're playing music, not scales. Don't be afraid to step outside of the box, just let your ears decide when you've gone to far and need to come back in.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:06 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Dawg158
^If that book is anything at all like the Hal Leonard scale book then yea it's pretty much a waste. Over a 100 pages of diagrams showing the same freakin pattern marketed to suckers who don't know any better, I know because I was one too when I started learning theory.


This isn't a Hal Leonard type of book. Strange how you haven't examined the book in question but feel qualified to comment on it. The epitome of ignorance personified.

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Only good parts of that book were where it told you how to build the major scale and the chart naming the notes on the fretboard, conviently [sic] located at the front and back of the book respectively.


I already know scales and theory, and the intervals that constitute a major scale and others. The nature of the guitar finger board is such that there will be patterns that repeat, but this isn't merely a 'pattern' book as such.

Maybe you should go look at it before commenting? Seriously, who disparages anything they haven't first laid their eyes upon and examined?

In passing, 'conviently' is spelled conveniently. If you use the Firefox browser you don't even have to know how to spell to write like you're intelligent. Firefox underlines misspelled words for you and gives you the option of several choices with which to replace the erroneous term. I find that laziness in one area of life tends to indicate laziness in most other areas of life. Your mileage may vary.

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Old 11-29-2012, 12:38 PM   #55
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Ooooh...burn!
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #56
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My comment was directed towards the Hal Leonard book I purchased as a rookie guitar player, not the book in question, prefaced by the conditional statement that "IF" it is similar then it is likely of equal unusefulness to anyone with a good understanding of the fundamentals of theory. I drew the conclusion that they may in fact be similar based upon this statement.

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Originally Posted by ConcertShooter
The first 20 pages are general explanation and the next 191 are nothing but scales and modes in every variety known to mankind. Major, minor, Hungarian, Persian, you name it, it's in there.


Sounds like every scale book I've ever looked through in my life. You don't have to have examined every breed of dog on the face of the earth to recognize that a dog is a dog. In my experience, books like this are a scheme no more better than those, "Are you making these 3 major guitar mistakes?" ads all over the net, intended to prey on the gullible and inexperienced to feed them shapes and patterns that they would be better served working out for themselves. It doesn't take a whole lot of information to remember how to construct a scale, certainly not enough to fill a 200+ page book.

Since you feel strongly enough about the book's integrity enough to call me out on it then I will give it the benefit of the doubt and check it out to see if it contains any knowledge superior to that of every other scale reference book I've read.

This is a free forum filled with people giving their own advice freely. Mine is drawn from my own study and experience. If people don't like it then they don't have to take it. In this case, my experience is scale and chord books are "giving a man a fish when he should be learning how to fish." If people want to use them for reference then that's their prerogative, but my problem is when they use them as a crutch to lift up their own misguided understanding, which is more often than not the case. If you think I'm just bitter about the subject then by all means dismiss my rant altogether, makes no difference to me.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:55 PM   #57
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My philosophy is that there doesn't exist a single "element" in music that can't be beneficial to the individual musician/instrumentalist. While certain areas may require more of our attention than others on our separate journeys; it is awfully ignorant and stubborn to insist that any one particular exercise or "tool" is of no value. The book that Concert Shooter has referenced to my understanding does not advertise its self as the end all be all to understanding the various scales. At the same time, yes it is someones attempt to make a buck which could imply 'devious' tactics...but that is the nature of business. It is a tool and nothing more. It is still up to the individual guitarist to pick out the portions that prove valuable to them and throw out all the rest.

I can ascertain from ConcertShooters posts that he might be a fairly accomplished musician, and he speaks as someone who has been around the block and knows a thing or two. Does that mean every advice he gives is to be taken as absolutely correct? Obviously not. However, I put more stock in the advice of someone that seems sincere in their approach and who have a proven history of success within their field.

Yes, a person can work out scales on their own...and I strongly advise this to any guitarist. That is part of the learning process of a musician. At the same time, it is incredibly glib to think that any of these books that offer various approaches and excercises such as scales, arpeggios, string-skipping, sweeping, etc...etc.. have nothing to offer. It is an elitist mentality that insists there is nothing to be gained here. People that are humble and realistic are going to be the one's that find legitimate use in any and all avenues pertaining to their art.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:04 PM   #58
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A developed ear lets you play what you hear in your head on the guitar. Music theory lets you understand and communicate what you're doing with other musicians. It also lets you better examine other music to get ideas and inspiration.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:31 PM   #59
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Maybe a bit late to say this but Hendrix may not have known all the fancy names but he knew how different chords work with each other and what sounds good over whatever chords. If that's not knowing theory then what is? I mean, you learn theory even if you don't know all the fancy names that you really don't need. It's more important to be able to apply the knowledge than know all the terms but have no idea how they sound.

And about modes: They were used in pre-tonal music (pre-17th century), back when there were no keys. But today they are just used as scales and many people refer to scale shapes when they talk about modes (you are not playing modal music when you play these scale shapes, you are most likely playing in the major or minor that shares the same notes). Mode is a cuss word because people understand it wrong very easily. That's why people don't like to talk about modes in MT.

But scales can be helpful, at least if you listen to how different notes of the scale sound over different chords. But learning scales might turn your autopilot mode on and you'll end up not thinking and just playing the scale up and down without any real ideas. You can use the knowledge of scales well when you have a trained ear. And you can base your solo around a scale and use accidentals. But the main point of soloing is ear training and scales might help you on that. But as I said, many times people just ask "which scale should I play over this chord progression" and they don't even listen to what they play, they only play some scale notes. That might sound OK but if you don't know what you are doing, there's a possibility that the solo sounds very generic and boring.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:38 AM   #60
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Scales are but one part of music theory. The most basic part.

I don't play guitar and don't know the finger board. I need a book at this point as I can't afford violin and guitar lessons.

What's the general age on these forums when most posters outgrow the name calling and childish ad hominem attacks?


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M.T: Physical 25, Mental 114.
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