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Old 11-28-2012, 02:46 AM   #61
mattrusso
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TS, if you want to understand how to write modal music, you need to understand modal harmony. There's no way around it. Reading pages 18-32 of this would be a good, relatively quick introduction:

http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/P...ny/Harmony4.PDF

Also, why are people shitting on modal music? It is not "outdated" any more than any other way of organizing the chromatic scale. The possibilites of modal music extend far past just using notes diatonic to a single mode, just like tonal music extends way past using only diatonic notes and chords in a single key.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:02 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by mattrusso
Also, why are people shitting on modal music? It is not "outdated" any more than any other way of organizing the chromatic scale. The possibilites of modal music extend far past just using notes diatonic to a single mode, just like tonal music extends way past using only diatonic notes and chords in a single key.


that's kind of the defining restriction of modal music. if it extends past diatonicism, it is tonal music (unless, of course, it eschews a tonal center, and is atonal).

unless, of course, you want to tell me that mozart's sonata in F major is actually in F mixolydian but happens to use an E natural. you can try and make that claim, but i'll dispel it in nothing flat.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:15 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by mattrusso
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Also, why are people shitting on modal music? It is not "outdated" any more than any other way of organizing the chromatic scale. The possibilites of modal music extend far past just using notes diatonic to a single mode, just like tonal music extends way past using only diatonic notes and chords in a single key.

We never said it was bad. Modal music sounds cool. But as AeolianWolf said, you can't use notes outside the mode. We've moved on from it hundreds of years ago, just as we've moved on from plainchant music before it. Practically the only reason guitarist insist on learning them before actual useful theory is because a bunch of famous guitarists used cool sounding names in the 80s.
It's like an artist wanting to use a simplified color wheel from the past (which is fun to play with) when we now have a vastly improved and more adaptable wheel, and then trying to explain painting using that old, outdated color wheel. It just doesn't work and they will eventually hit a wall of "Why are you using that color wheel? This one gives you more colors and shades. What do you mean you don't know about this color wheel? It gives you everything you need."
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:47 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
that's kind of the defining restriction of modal music. if it extends past diatonicism, it is tonal music (unless, of course, it eschews a tonal center, and is atonal).

unless, of course, you want to tell me that mozart's sonata in F major is actually in F mixolydian but happens to use an E natural. you can try and make that claim, but i'll dispel it in nothing flat.

Well, sorry, but that's not true. At the very least, you can successfully mix modes (and resolve to a tonal center) without ever becoming tonal. Check out the tune "Naima" by John Coltrane (I suggest you get a lead sheet of it if you want to understand what I'm about to say). The harmony is really, really far from being diatonic to any one key or mode. In fact, the controlling mode changes almost every bar. It's absolutely impossible to analyze or explain this tune through a tonal lens, because it's modal by its very nature. No matter if it's your style or not, there's no denying its complexity and depth (and beauty!). This is what I mean by advanced modal music.



What point are you trying to make with the Mozart example? I'm clearly not trying to say that all music is modal, so I'm not really sure what you meant by that.

I'd like to make another point about the so-called "restrictions" of modal writing. Writing modally can actually open up the deeper harmonic possibilities of pitch set. Modal music does not rely on tertian (or tertian-derived) harmonic structures. This allows for free exploration of the mode's vertical voicing options! A modal voicing does not necessarily have to correspond to any tertian chord, as long as it makes sense in context.

I'm DEFINITELY not trying to say that modal music is "better" in any way than tonal music. I'm just trying to make you guys realize that it exists all over the place (including contemporary music) and in extremely advanced forms, just like tonal music. It doesn't make sense to write off a totally legitimate and accepted musical approach just because it's not the one you're most familiar with.

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Old 11-28-2012, 03:58 AM   #65
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:08 AM   #66
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:04 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattrusso
Well, sorry, but that's not true. At the very least, you can successfully mix modes (and resolve to a tonal center) without ever becoming tonal. Check out the tune "Naima" by John Coltrane (I suggest you get a lead sheet of it if you want to understand what I'm about to say). The harmony is really, really far from being diatonic to any one key or mode. In fact, the controlling mode changes almost every bar. It's absolutely impossible to analyze or explain this tune through a tonal lens, because it's modal by its very nature. No matter if it's your style or not, there's no denying its complexity and depth (and beauty!). This is what I mean by advanced modal music.



What point are you trying to make with the Mozart example? I'm clearly not trying to say that all music is modal, so I'm not really sure what you meant by that.

I'd like to make another point about the so-called "restrictions" of modal writing. Writing modally can actually open up the deeper harmonic possibilities of pitch set. Modal music does not rely on tertian (or tertian-derived) harmonic structures. This allows for free exploration of the mode's vertical voicing options! A modal voicing does not necessarily have to correspond to any tertian chord, as long as it makes sense in context.

I'm DEFINITELY not trying to say that modal music is "better" in any way than tonal music. I'm just trying to make you guys realize that it exists all over the place (including contemporary music) and in extremely advanced forms, just like tonal music. It doesn't make sense to write off a totally legitimate and accepted musical approach just because it's not the one you're most familiar with.


all i see is "there is modal music, guys" and "it's not tonal". you can give me all the examples you want (and obviously you are well-versed), but if none of them are germane to asserting that my point is wrong, then your arguments are useless.

if your analytical system for "advanced modal music" is CST, there's definitely a problem, and it's nowhere near as advanced as you think.

and don't go around saying that quartal harmony is not tonal music. there are TWO types of music: music with a tonal center (tonal), and music without a tonal center (atonal). what you call "modal music" is simply tonal music. slice it six ways until tuesday, but that's what it is. people who are unable to adapt a more progressive thought process can maybe sleep a little better at night by telling me that i won't make it in the real world, or that they feel sorry for the narrow scope i have. but ultimately, it just comes down to their failure to counter an approach contradictory to theirs.

your sentence "you can resolve to a tonal center without ever becoming tonal" is by its very syntax contradictory.

nobody is "writing anything off". but there's a saying - "if you're looking for something, you'll find it." if i'm looking for a way to call a piece modal, i will find it - regardless of how prominently tonality is staring me in the face. if i really want to call a symphony in G major "G mixolydian" because of the occurrence of the F natural, by god, i'll do it, regardless of how incorrect it may be.

i also find it funny how the mode freaks of the modern day obsess over dorian and mixolydian and the like, but they have never even heard of the prefix "hypo-". just an observation - people pick, choose, and complicate (in that order). i suppose that there is some merit to the "modal approach" - but ultimately it falls under the realm of tonal music.

great tune, by the way. i'm a huge coltrane fan.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:25 AM   #68
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:47 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
and don't go around saying that quartal harmony is not tonal music. there are TWO types of music: music with a tonal center (tonal), and music without a tonal center (atonal).

That's like saying purely sound based music is atonal, which while technically correct it is not what people call it. Atonal refers to a specific type method of writing music in which the pitch set is serialized and the entire parameter is taken away and made autonomous. While there is such thing as Free atonal music, it always ends up containing micro key structures and is not truly atonal. While sound based music doesn't actually contain discernible pitches you can't call it atonal because it just leads to confusion.
I would argue that this is exactly what you are doing with tonal music, while modal modal is actually tonal, doesn't mean you can't learn anything from view a piece modally, especially when viewing things horizontally. I remember reading Coltrane talk about when he played on Kind of Blue for Miles Davis, how the simplified the harmony allowed him to think more horizontally instead of just being predominantly(not using in musical context) vertical like when improvising in Bop.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:23 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by rockingamer2
We never said it was bad. Modal music sounds cool. But as AeolianWolf said, you can't use notes outside the mode. We've moved on from it hundreds of years ago, just as we've moved on from plainchant music before it. Practically the only reason guitarist insist on learning them before actual useful theory is because a bunch of famous guitarists used cool sounding names in the 80s.
It's like an artist wanting to use a simplified color wheel from the past (which is fun to play with) when we now have a vastly improved and more adaptable wheel, and then trying to explain painting using that old, outdated color wheel. It just doesn't work and they will eventually hit a wall of "Why are you using that color wheel? This one gives you more colors and shades. What do you mean you don't know about this color wheel? It gives you everything you need."


This isn't really an argument.

What if someone likes that kind of music (you say it sounds "cool") and wants to write that kind of music, whether it sounds outmoded (no pun intended) or not?

You can't make the pronouncement that we've "moved on". What if someone doesn't want to move on? What if they decide that in order to move on they need to learn a little about the old ways first. Do you tell a little kid painting watercolour he's using an outdated colour wheel and his chromatic palette is sadly lacking?

By all means stamp hard on all the misuse of modal lingo that we see on this forum but you can't say that anyone shouldn't want to learn modes properly. They'll find out all about the limitations when they do so.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:36 AM   #71
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modality is stripped down tonality. if you want to learn it, you can just assess applications of it in gregorian chant and the like.

but if you have the ability to do that already, you probably don't need those rock discipline DVDs and wouldn't need to be asking about it in the first place.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:31 PM   #72
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Well ok after looking through some other threads I can see that modes are the biggest argument cause on MT

If they're so outdated and limiting then what all do you use (scales) and practice?

Do you really just think minor/major w/ accidentals?

And you keep telling me they're limited to two chords vamps but I see people all the time everywhere using them for full chord progressions.

When I learn a solo I can relate it to a mode or two modes and play them in any key

Is your new approach to tonalities really going to make me a more advanced player, or are you just attacking me with proper terminology/theory/musical philosophy whatever you want to call it.


How do YOU do it.....that's different from what I do so I can learn and compare then won't need to bother with another mode thread.

Thank you

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Old 11-28-2012, 01:48 PM   #73
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If they're so outdated and limiting then what all do you use (scales) and practice?

i use sounds/my ear, an understanding of phrasing/rhythm/dynamics, and music (either my own or other peoples') to improve these skills as well as my technical ability to execute them.

Quote:
Do you really just think minor/major w/ accidentals?

i usually don't even think of them like that. i function pragmatically and worry more about the end result than what notes might potentially comprise of it.

hell, in the rare case where i'm improvising a solo instead of, yknow, making music, i'm probably thinking in chord tones rather than scales when i'm just devoid of all creativity

Quote:
And you keep telling me they're limited to two chords vamps but I see people all the time everywhere using them for full chord progressions.

no, you don't.

Quote:
When I learn a solo I can relate it to a mode or two modes and play them in any key

keys and modes are absolutely mutually exclusive. both have resolution, but modes are far more vague and have to adhere to very strict conventions to maintain their sound. if there are more than 1 or 2 chords - if any chords at all - it will pull too heavily to a certain note and allow accidentals (which, coincidentally, are what you'll be using over a major or minor chord)

Quote:
Is your new approach to tonalities really going to make me a more advanced player, or are you just attacking me with proper terminology/theory/musical philosophy whatever you want to call it.


you learn music by learning music. adhering to shapes and scales will do nothing but postpone actually needing to learn to play music. shapes are like the presets in a multi-effects - they'll get you a good general idea, but it's useless if you don't know how to make your own sounds, melodies, "presets" and understand how they work together functionally.

this isn't a new approach, btw - this was all settled like 400 years ago. modes only come up because somebody who wanted to pretend they knew theory flipped to the scales section of their 9th grade music theory textbook and said 'hey, this sounds foreign!'
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:07 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Jehannum
This isn't really an argument.

What if someone likes that kind of music (you say it sounds "cool") and wants to write that kind of music, whether it sounds outmoded (no pun intended) or not?

You can't make the pronouncement that we've "moved on". What if someone doesn't want to move on? What if they decide that in order to move on they need to learn a little about the old ways first. Do you tell a little kid painting watercolour he's using an outdated colour wheel and his chromatic palette is sadly lacking?

By all means stamp hard on all the misuse of modal lingo that we see on this forum but you can't say that anyone shouldn't want to learn modes properly. They'll find out all about the limitations when they do so.

I can say we've moved on because we have. The vast majority (over 99%) of music produced today is tonal.
If they want to use modes, that's fine. But what we get is people going to modes right out of the gate. This sets them up to have a skewed understanding of music theory. That's the problem. But if they start out with tonal theory, they will be more than equipped for modal theory and they don't get a skewed view of theory in the process.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:18 PM   #75
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I play what I hear in my head, which is what I think sounds good over the progression. Sure, I use shapes, but I know them inside and out to where I don't have to think about them. I just skip to the note I want, sometimes it's diatonic other times it's not.

As far as analyzing what I play, I say major/minor w/ accidentals. If you had to write it down on sheet music that's how you would do it so why complicate it any further?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nervouspace
When I learn a solo I can relate it to a mode or two modes and play them in any key


As has been established, that's because you are looking at modes as PATTERNS on the fretboard which isn't anything but an extension of the parent scale(You pointed this out yourself.)

My advice is still the same as my other post in this thread. Stop letting patterns and scales dictate what you play and learn to play the music that you want to play. Hum a melody you think sounds cool and find it on the guitar. It'll be hard at first, but over time you'll get better & better at it. Do ear training exercises, functional ear trainer get's tossed around here as a good one so check it out.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:08 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
all i see is "there is modal music, guys" and "it's not tonal". you can give me all the examples you want (and obviously you are well-versed), but if none of them are germane to asserting that my point is wrong, then your arguments are useless.

if your analytical system for "advanced modal music" is CST, there's definitely a problem, and it's nowhere near as advanced as you think.

and don't go around saying that quartal harmony is not tonal music. there are TWO types of music: music with a tonal center (tonal), and music without a tonal center (atonal). what you call "modal music" is simply tonal music. slice it six ways until tuesday, but that's what it is. people who are unable to adapt a more progressive thought process can maybe sleep a little better at night by telling me that i won't make it in the real world, or that they feel sorry for the narrow scope i have. but ultimately, it just comes down to their failure to counter an approach contradictory to theirs.

your sentence "you can resolve to a tonal center without ever becoming tonal" is by its very syntax contradictory.

nobody is "writing anything off". but there's a saying - "if you're looking for something, you'll find it." if i'm looking for a way to call a piece modal, i will find it - regardless of how prominently tonality is staring me in the face. if i really want to call a symphony in G major "G mixolydian" because of the occurrence of the F natural, by god, i'll do it, regardless of how incorrect it may be.

i also find it funny how the mode freaks of the modern day obsess over dorian and mixolydian and the like, but they have never even heard of the prefix "hypo-". just an observation - people pick, choose, and complicate (in that order). i suppose that there is some merit to the "modal approach" - but ultimately it falls under the realm of tonal music.

great tune, by the way. i'm a huge coltrane fan.

Your point that I was trying to refute was "if it extends past diatonicism, it is tonal music." I gave an example of modal music that does exactly that, so my post was totally relevant to what you were trying to say.

My method of analysis was, in fact, Chord Scale Theory, but it's really the only way for this type of composition. Coltrane was super into George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization, which is the foundation of CST. He almost definitely wrote "Naima" with that approach in mind. Try and analyze it with another system. It just doesn't work. Here's the lead sheet.

What is "not advanced" about CST? It's not an end-all harmonic theory. In a major/minor key context, it's just way to help understand the more modern extensions of what is essentially basic tonal harmony (CST in this context could obviously not exist without tonal harmony). In a modal context, especially a more modern one, it's (IMO) the best way to understand how the notes are organized. Any other approach I've seen to analyzing it is actually really similar, because modal music is so simple in its concept.

I never said that quartal harmony is not tonal music (in fact I never mentioned quartal harmony), but most of the time when it's used in a major/minor key context it's just a way to voice tertian-derived chords. Its application in modal music is totally different. Also, there are many more modal voicing options besides fourth voicings.

I think we're also having some confusion with terminology. When I've been referring to "tonal" music, what I mean is major/minor key music as opposed to modal music (this is terminology a lot of respected theorists/professors use; I'm not just pulling it out of my ass). They obviously both require a tonal center to make any sense. So what I meant was "you can resolve to a tonal center without being in a major or minor key." Is that clearer? In an earlier post, though, you seemed to make the exact same distinction between modal and tonal music (unless I misinterpreted you) that I'm making:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
that's kind of the defining restriction of modal music. if it extends past diatonicism, it is tonal music (unless, of course, it eschews a tonal center, and is atonal).

I don't see how your approach is contradictory to mine. The only major difference I see is that you seem to think that modal music must stay diatonic to one mode, while I'm telling you that's not the case. We seem to agree on pretty much everything else except really small details and semantics.

I'm not saying that something in G major is in G mixolydian if there's an F somewhere in there. But, if F is part of the controlling tonic/cadential sound of the piece, there's a good chance it might be in mixolydian. It could also just have a chromatically altered I7 chord. As you know, it depends on a lot of other factors.

I really hope you weren't implying that I know nothing about Gregorian modes. We both know that system is not event almost the same as the modern concept of modal writing, which is what we've been discussing. We also both know that the prefix "hypo" only has to do with range considerations. So there's really no point in you mentioning that stuff except to show your knowledge of something that actually hasn't really been used in centuries.

Isn't it a great tune, though? Ridiculously beautiful.

Look, my intention is not to start or prolong some huge argument (way too late for that). I just enjoy spreading knowledge and discussing music from an analytical perspective. I appreciate AeolianWolf and a few others (not very many) actually doing this in an intelligent, civil way, and I understand and appreciate that we all have our own opinions. However, I feel compelled to respond when someone challenges something I say that I know is true. Basically, what I want to say is that I'm probably not gonna check or respond to this thread because I've said all (possibly more than) I need to and I don't feel like continuing a nitpicky argument that doesn't benefit the threadstarter in any way.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:07 PM   #77
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Tje Am chord contains A,C,E, so any scale with those notes for only that chord.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:59 AM   #78
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Modes can be a great tool to use as a soloist as they are basicly scales that can follow a chord progression and they also encourage you to utilise a lot of the fret board. As you probably know modes use all the same notes but just start at different points within the Major scale.

For example the A natural minor scale is actually the 6th mode of the C major scale and is called the Aolian mode.

Also A Dorian is the second Mode of the G major scale which E is the relative minor but A dorian is not in the key of A minor as it has an F# in it.

This thread is a massive cluster **** of pumpkin soup and gordon ramsey but I hope this helps.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #79
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music with a tonal center is "tonal music". if you really insist on muddying things up to a higher degree, you do you.

Quote:
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Modes can be a great tool to use as a soloist as they are basicly scales that can follow a chord progression and they also encourage you to utilise a lot of the fret board. As you probably know modes use all the same notes but just start at different points within the Major scale.


im out guys
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:42 PM   #80
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This thread is a massive cluster **** of pumpkin soup and gordon ramsey but I hope this helps.

That guy is better at making pumpkin soup than you are at understanding/explaining modes.
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