Morphogenesis26

Ionian Mode - I decided to be homeless homeless mode

Dorian - I got my shit stolen homeless mode

Phrygian - My left hand got broke homeless mode

Lydian - My right hand got broke homeless mode

Mixolydian - Can't use my pinky no more homeless mode

Aeolian - Fell in love with james hetfield homeless mode

Locrian - Gonna film an internet forum 'cause I'm homeless homeless mode

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20Tigers

I'm just working out some ideas here and using this forum as a sounding board. I do appreciate a valid discussion and exchange of ideas. If you're sick of modes - don't bother.

A key defines the tonal centre and by extension the relationship of all the possible notes in a composition to that tonal centre.

Mode, in the widest sense of the word denotes the selection of tones, arranged in a scale, that form the basic tonal substance of a composition. In any given key a large number of modes are possible. (E.G. The Dorian mode, the phrygian mode, the major mode usually called the major key, the minor mode usually called the minor key...)

For most of the last 200 odd years the Western Music scene has been dominated by two modes - Major and minor. The majority of what you will learn when you study music theory is about the use and function of these two modes specifically.

In a narrower sense of the term "modes" refers to the church modes (as described in a previous post by Aeolian Wolf) each of which is one possible mode within a given key.

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He did not say that there were more than two keys. He said that major and minor were modes and that that they were only two of many possible modes. Here are the quotes again:


As you claim he didn't actually say this before generously giving me the benefit of the doubt here are those exact words coming out of his own mouth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWtUCAYV3so#t=02m11s

What he is saying here is pretty much the same as what I described earlier in this same post. (Much of which is lifted almost directly from a different source - namely the Harvard Dictionary of Music).

Howard Goodall offers some interesting views some of which seem at first to contradict himself.

He starts by describing modes in a way that fits very neatly with what was described above On it's own this explanation of what modes are seems to be perfectly in line with calling major and minor "modes" in the same way Bernstein and the Harvard Dictionary of Music does above.

In this same series when Goodall hints at the melodic revolution brought about by classical music (namely the move to a key based system which he describes as "diatonic") he states that we still write music according to these changes no matter what our musical background. He describes the new minor key as "all purpose" and describes how robust this new system is and further claims that


Then, and this is the part that at first had me confused, he goes on to describe how the major/minor key based system dominated for about 200 years and then Later in the same episode he describes a Sting song as Dorian and in another series he describes Eleanor Rigby as being Dorian.

So one minute he explains the revolution of the "diatonic" key based system as replacing the older mode system, he describes the new system as all purpose that we write using this system no matter what our background and that every single song that has been a hit without exception has been diatonic. Then goes and describes a hit within the last hundred years as modal.

At first it seems almost a contradiction. But on further contemplation, maybe it's not. The key based system replaced an older system of modes. That old modal system had distinct disadvantages. Instruments were made to work in certain modes and not others. Each mode was pretty much tied to a specific pitch and had specific rules around note range and movement. The new transposable key system was quite a revolution (though my understnding is that it happened gradually).

Much later when those "cutting edge" composers looked to the modes for inspiration they reinterpreted the modes through the context of 200 years of key based tonal thinking (what Goodall describes as diatonic). The modes were brought back within this new framework. So although they were bringing forward the intervallic structure of the church modes they left behind the restrictive system upon which they were based in favour of the more flexible and improved key based system. Only now instead of sticking with the major and minor modes they would introduce dorian mixolydian or phrygian modes into the music they were composing and it could still be, as Goodall says, diatonic.

note for noobs this is not necessarily the strictest definition of the term diatonic. Most theorists agree that if a composition is strictly diatonic then it sticks to the notes of the diatonic major scale. The key based system is not necessarily diatonic in that keys do allow for inclusion of chromatic variations.

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Si
Explaining Modes part 1
Explaining Modes part 2 (continued)

Sleepy__Head

I think, given the first sentence, I'd maybe either qualify or remove the use of the word 'tonal' in the emboldened section. Modes provide the tones that a composition uses, but that composition isn't necessarily going to be tonal.



Maybe talk about different senses of the word 'mode' rather than broader and narrower senses, just because each sense has its own contribution to make and the entire sense of the word is just all of those senses added together.



I'd question that the movement beyond modes has to do with inherent disadvantages (although I agree that restrictions of any particular system of music may strike progressives as a disadvantage). It strikes me that it's more likely that composers wanted to explore different kinds of music (for a variety of different reasons) and this - by degrees - led away from modes and from the systems of tuning that were employed when modes were the only kind of music being written. It's the same throughout musical history: There's nothing inherently wrong with Plainchant, Renaissance, Classical, Romantic, or Atonal music, but if you're a creative artist who wants to push the boundaries then you're going to want to do 'something else' and that's probably going to involve writing something which takes some elements from the tradition you inherit and adds something distinctive and new to it.

On your point about "instruments being made to work in certain modes" ... this may be true for certain types of instruments such as recorders where it's difficult to adjust the relative pitch of the notes on the instrument, but it's not true for stringed instruments such viols. The problem here sort-of relates to modes and sort-of doesn't. It sort-of relates to modes because temperament problems aren't so obvious if you a) don't use tertian harmony and b) don't modulate. It's these two innovations (tertian harmony, modulation) that drive the requirement for new temperaments (Meantone (replacing Pythagorean - because of problems with major thirds in Pythagorean tuning), and Equal (replacing Meantone - because of problems modulating when using Meantone temperament). And that's the reason that the problem sort-of doesn't relate to modes: Temperament problems have to do with the interaction of one pitch with another, rather than the scale-type being used.



Not sure about the word 'improved' in the emboldened section. Is oil-based painting an improvement over water-colours? What about rhyming over alliteration? I agree it's tempting to see the later system as an improvement, but I tend to the opinion that it adds another means of creating music to your palette. And that means of creating music comes with restrictions of its own. In the same way the 12-tone method has its own restrictions. Does it supersede tonal music? Well, it's discovered / invented later than tonal music.

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gabipe15

Modes are the best way to change your only pentatonic stuff.

Try using low E String as root note, and practice different intervals on A string.
You'll see then that modes are not a pile of ****.

AeolianWolf

of course there are more than two modes. but i legitimately thought that you said that bernstein thought that there were more than two keys. i went back to quote it but i can't find it, so i'm guessing i probably misread something somewhere -- i was sure i saw it, though. but since i can't find it, that entire portion of my argument is moot, so i apologize for that.



it looks to me like you don't know enough theory to discern why they're a pile of ****.

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amonamarthmetal

So tempting to sig

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z4twenny

Go for it

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20Tigers

Another quote from the same Bernstein show supports a consistent message you put forth in regard to modes:

Ten years of doing these programmes and if it hadn't been for his daughter happening across a song that uses modes and insisting he cover them in one of his programmes he wouldn't have even brought them up.

Imagine that - ten years of discussing music without mentioning modes.

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Si
Explaining Modes part 1
Explaining Modes part 2 (continued)

Jehannum

Lucky to get 10 minutes here!

gabipe15

Let's see your theory knowledge, so you explain us all why modes are a pile of ****, you could try explaining them to every contemporary artist too, cause' as what i'm aware, everyone of them use modal variations in many of their albums.

jrenkert

way to poke the ant hill...

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Jehannum

Oftentimes, what people call 'modal variations' are nothing of the sort. Certainly if you're claiming that every contemporary artist uses modes, you are wrong. It's not that modes are a pile of shit, it's that most of cited contemporary examples aren't actually modal.

mdc

Modes: 0:55 - 1:28

Am11 - Amaj7#11 - Dm11 - -Gma7#11

A Dorian - A Lydian - D Dorian - G Lydian





Modes exist.

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Sweet

GoldenGuitar

From this comment, it seems like you know absolutely shit all.


Go back and read every mode thread you see, and you'll see that AeolianWolf has explained it more than enough times. In fact, I've had my fair share of arguments with him. And although I don't completely agree with him on every aspect about modes, one thing I know for sure is that he REALLY KNOWS HIS SHIT.

macashmack

Ima go jam in the B hypo-mixo-phrygo-lydo mode now. maybe throw some Dorio-Oreo-Ionio into the mix. Tell me i aint being modal yo.

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Modes and scales are intelligent and useful. Start learning them. Seriously.

mdc

I love Oreo's. Especially when chilled.

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Sweet

macashmack

Yea with a nice cold glass of milk, the double stuffed Oreo's are very nice.

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Modes and scales are intelligent and useful. Start learning them. Seriously.

mdc

Yeah, so **** this...

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Sweet

AeolianWolf

really? then your awareness is pretty limited.

i suppose i could completely overwhelm you, but there's no victory there for anyone. i end up looking like a douche, and you end up confused. so let's play this the constructive way.

first, i need you to explain to me why a composition using the notes E F# G# A B C# and D could not be explained as being tonal, and being in the key of E major.

i am expecting a valid argument from you, since you decided to call me out. don't disappoint me (although experience dictates that you will).



grazie

this world would be boring as shit if we all agreed. but there's a difference between a disagreement between correct and incorrect viewpoints, and two valid viewpoints that disagree.

i like to think the arguments i have with you are better described as being in the latter.



no one ever said they were a pile of shit. i said they were a pile of fuck.

what i'm starting to realize (and that it's actually really funny) is that every mode thread argument we get into is exactly the same - some ignoramus comes along and completely ignores all the previous arguments, so we end up fighting the same battles anew.

eh, i guess it's kind of fun, anyway. gotta stay sharp, know what i mean?

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