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Old 12-05-2012, 04:49 PM   #41
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:17 AM   #42
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Ok. Let's start from the beggining. TS asked what are modes? i answered him to try them out easy way, meaning, playing major or minor scales, starting not from the original root note.
If you mention E F# G# A B C# D# it is a E Ionian scale or major scale. Playing the same notes but in a different order, exam. F# G# A B C# D# E, you'd be playing the F# dorian scale. Same notes, different order, different intervals from the root note, that's why they sound different.

If you take the chords you're playing over, it could or could not be modal, it is not always. Chords usually are part of many scales. Depending on which scale are you playing over the chord, you actually can call it a modal sequence.

If you take E F# G# A B C# D#, you can form the chord for each of its notes. That would be EM7, F#m7, G#m7, AM7, B7, C#m7, D#m7(b5). If you play a sequence over those chords you're playing a E Ionian or major sequence, unless the chords are shared by another scale too, and you decide to "sound" the other way, it is possible too.

if you take F# G# A B C# D# E, the chords will be F#m7, G#m7, AM7, B7, C#m7, D#m7(b5), EM7. If you play a sequence with some of that chords you'd be playing an F# dorian sequence, unless you share chords, and you don't want to sound dorian.

If you listen "Evil Ways" by Santana, you can hear him playing over the G dorian scale, in a Gmin-C sequence, that are actually the chords formed over the 2nd and 5th intervals of the F key, that's why he plays the F scale over the sequence, and we call it G Dorian. It is G as a second degree of the F scale.

If you play an F#m7 and you expect it to be F# dorian, you're not there yet, to make it dorian yo have to separate it from a F# phrygian or F# aeolian. The note that WILL make it dorian is the Major 6th of the F# scale, in this case D#, if you play a m7 with a major 6th, you're in F# dorian, and that's about it.

I hope you can teach me out of this, if that's the case like some of you are saying.
Maybe we're saying the same, but expressing in different ways.

If you were meaning by modal variations, taking chords from a parallel mode, to use it in your progression, then we were talking about different things, and my spelling would've been incorrect, maybe cause i'm not english speaking in Argentina, my home. Then maybe you need to recommend me English lessons, but not music theory by the way.

Hope we keep the discussion, its nice to have one actually
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:20 AM   #43
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:18 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
Ok. Let's start from the beggining. TS asked what are modes? i answered him to try them out easy way, meaning, playing major or minor scales, starting not from the original root note.
If you mention E F# G# A B C# D# it is a E Ionian scale or major scale. Playing the same notes but in a different order, exam. F# G# A B C# D# E, you'd be playing the F# dorian scale. Same notes, different order, different intervals from the root note, that's why they sound different.


not necessarily. it all depends on the harmonic background. if you play E F# G# A B C# D# E, it's an E major scale (or can also be called the E ionian mode, as you've said). same deal with the F# dorian mode you've posted. however, when actually using them in music, it has absolutely nothing to do with what order the notes are in - it has far more to do with the resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
If you take the chords you're playing over, it could or could not be modal, it is not always. Chords usually are part of many scales. Depending on which scale are you playing over the chord, you actually can call it a modal sequence.


or how about just thinking in keys? that's why they exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
If you take E F# G# A B C# D#, you can form the chord for each of its notes. That would be EM7, F#m7, G#m7, AM7, B7, C#m7, D#m7(b5). If you play a sequence over those chords you're playing a E Ionian or major sequence, unless the chords are shared by another scale too, and you decide to "sound" the other way, it is possible too.


tertian harmony is an extremely key-oriented concept. modes were not designed to do this (for example, locrian would resolve on a diminished triad). if you use those chords, you're almost definitely in E major (possibly C# minor, depending on context).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
if you take F# G# A B C# D# E, the chords will be F#m7, G#m7, AM7, B7, C#m7, D#m7(b5), EM7. If you play a sequence with some of that chords you'd be playing an F# dorian sequence, unless you share chords, and you don't want to sound dorian.


i'm not really sure what you're getting at here. sequences aren't involved, so i'm really not clear about what you're trying to express.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
If you listen "Evil Ways" by Santana, you can hear him playing over the G dorian scale, in a Gmin-C sequence, that are actually the chords formed over the 2nd and 5th intervals of the F key, that's why he plays the F scale over the sequence, and we call it G Dorian. It is G as a second degree of the F scale.


if the key is F, then G dorian is simply not involved. if he's playing an F scale, why in god's name would you call it G dorian? you just said it was an F scale. see how this doesn't make sense?

if the key is F, the scale is F major.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
If you play an F#m7 and you expect it to be F# dorian, you're not there yet, to make it dorian yo have to separate it from a F# phrygian or F# aeolian. The note that WILL make it dorian is the Major 6th of the F# scale, in this case D#, if you play a m7 with a major 6th, you're in F# dorian, and that's about it.


not quite. that could just as easily be described as being in a key - F# minor. you're allowed to have accidentals in keys, but not so much in modes (and since some of you have been saying "you can absolutely have accidentals in modes", i'd really like it if you gave examples instead of just asserted a view with no support -- show me why modes can have accidentals like keys, because if that were the case there would be a lot more than two keys), since it destroys the essence of the mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
If you were meaning by modal variations, taking chords from a parallel mode, to use it in your progression, then we were talking about different things, and my spelling would've been incorrect, maybe cause i'm not english speaking in Argentina, my home. Then maybe you need to recommend me English lessons, but not music theory by the way.


the concept you're talking about here would involve keys.

i'd recommend you more for music theory lessons with a better teacher, honestly. your english is fine, i've had no trouble understanding you (except for the part where i said "i'm not sure what you're getting at"), but some of the concepts you're talking about are incorrect.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:23 PM   #45
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lol, every mode thread is kinda like a troll thread
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:33 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
if the key is F, then G dorian is simply not involved. if he's playing an F scale, why in god's name would you call it G dorian? you just said it was an F scale. see how this doesn't make sense?

if the key is F, the scale is F major.

And in this case it isn't F major because the progression doesn't resolve to F major. The "I" chord here is G minor.

And yeah, you don't play A minor over C major progression, you play C major over C major progression. The scales share the same notes but playing in A minor is different to playing in C major. Everybody should start thinking more about the whole thing, not just what scale guitar plays. Harmony has a lot more to do with the key you are playing in than the scale you are using.

And saying that C ionian is C major scale that starts with C and D dorian is C major that starts with D is just wrong (basically it's right but this kind of wording just confuses people and they think they are playing modally all the time). You can play the notes in whatever order and still you will be playing in C major and not two or three different scales. It's about the chord progression, not about what note you start the solo with. You can just emphasize D over C major chord progression but you can't make it sound like D dorian because of the chords.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:24 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
And in this case it isn't F major because the progression doesn't resolve to F major. The "I" chord here is G minor.


irrelevant. if you call it "key of F", then it's the key of F. if it's a i-IV vamp, it's a G dorian vamp, also very easily explainable as being in G minor. F as a tonal center is not related, and neither is any sort of F scale.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:33 PM   #48
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What MaggaraMarine said is exactly the way it is, and clearly spoken i think.
If i get it right it is the same as i tried to explain before, maybe explained a little better.

But i see the point of AeolianWOlf, you started talking about the same as Magga, and then got wrong what magga explained better.

It is the same notes you're playing in a different context, not the order of the notes, actually the notes.

Am is not the same as C major. I get it when you say, if you play C major scale, then it is C major scale, why the hell call it A aeolian?, Because in an Am progression, the resolution chord is Am, and so the scale (actually the same scale as before) is called A Aeolian, it is the name of the scale that changes, not the scale.

It is actually confusing if you don't understand modes, but it is the name given to them. I think it would be more confusing to say that we simply use C major scale in every progression that you can use it, regardless of the context.

Anyways, i think we are both talking about the same thing, actually naming it different.

Correct me wherever you think i'm failing.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:33 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
But i see the point of AeolianWOlf, you started talking about the same as Magga, and then got wrong what magga explained better.

It is the same notes you're playing in a different context, not the order of the notes, actually the notes.






you're funny, in case that wasn't clear.

if you think i got something wrong, you don't even come close to seeing my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
Am is not the same as C major. I get it when you say, if you play C major scale, then it is C major scale, why the hell call it A aeolian?, Because in an Am progression, the resolution chord is Am, and so the scale (actually the same scale as before) is called A Aeolian, it is the name of the scale that changes, not the scale.


right. let me clarify something for you, in case you were born in 1576 italy and have recently woken from a cryogenic sleep.

we have a system called a key system. there are two keys - major and minor. if the resolution chord is Am, the key is A minor. A aeolian is irrelevant. it just so happens that the A aeolian mode is similar to the A natural minor scale. but there's a reason they're not the same thing (otherwise we would only have one name for them). it warrants a different name because it's an entirely different concept.

unless, of course, you're a guitarist who knows nothing about music other than scales. then, to you, it would be A aeolian.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:09 PM   #50
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You keep saying the same, neither deny nor accept something, changed the lyrics.

If you don't like the name it used to be called, put it the way you like it, cause it keeps existing. Why the hell the TS did mention modes if they do not exist anymore? Does he live in 1576? Because according to you there's no way he could've known about them, cause now theres a different concept.

I guess you didn't teach him either, with your bible.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:45 PM   #51
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gabipe15, do you understand the difference between a plagal mode and a authentic mode?

Do you understand what rules and characteristics are required to give a mode it's unique character, such as it's melodic patterns and cells?

Do you understand that these cells and patterns are different for each mode?

Do you realize that Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian and Mixolydian came along before Ionian and Aeloian?

Do you know the difference between traditional modes, and modes used in rock and fusion?

Do you understand chord scale theory?
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:51 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
irrelevant. if you call it "key of F", then it's the key of F. if it's a i-IV vamp, it's a G dorian vamp, also very easily explainable as being in G minor. F as a tonal center is not related, and neither is any sort of F scale.

Yes, but the song had that "dorian vamp." So it was wrong to even talk about F major. The notes used belong to F major scale but in this case it's not even F major scale because of the harmony. So yeah, mentioning F major was wrong.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:57 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Yes, but the song had that "dorian vamp." So it was wrong to even talk about F major. The notes used belong to F major scale but in this case it's not even F major scale because of the harmony. So yeah, mentioning F major was wrong.


exactly. having never heard the song personally, i can only go by what i'm told here. which is why i allowed for the possibility of both a G dorian vamp and an F major key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabipe15
You keep saying the same, neither deny nor accept something, changed the lyrics.


and yet you don't listen...where does the fault really lie here? with the person who explains something? or the person who refuses to accept it for absolutely no reason other than his adherence to a flawed understanding?

i'm not the one with my knowledge in question around here, pal.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:02 PM   #54
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I am pleased with the increased presence of Gordon Ramsay around these parts.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:22 PM   #55
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lol... mate!
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:31 PM   #56
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i start this thread simply because i wanted to have a better understanding of what modes are, not for people to argue... i should've known better lol...
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:34 PM   #57
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Do you know what modes are yet?
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:49 PM   #58
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i start this thread simply because i wanted to have a better understanding of what modes are, not for people to argue... i should've known better lol...


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Old 12-06-2012, 06:01 PM   #59
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This thread sucks the big hairy dick.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:19 PM   #60
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Modes keep coming up whenever im on these forums, and i wanted to know what they are and what their purpose is.

based on this thread, i think a comparison would be helpful

if i walk near my house for a while, turds from dogs with lazy owners keep coming up all over the place

i kept thinking to myself "why are they all over the place, and what's their purpose?"

then i realized, well **** it who cares, since they're just turds

apply this to your ug experience
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