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Old 12-16-2012, 05:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
I've thought about a couple of different options. I want to do something from the 20th century, but something accessible that I can talk about without set theory or twelve tone techniques. I thought I might do Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra (the first movement is a sonata form that might complement this analysis nicely) or Stravinsky's Octet for Winds, just because it's awesome.


Well it's not like there isn't lots to choose from, although if you're after a free score you'll need to pick someone who's been dead long enough for their works to be public domain, so no Britten or Copland (although whether you think that's a shame depends on what you think of their music).

If you're after accessible might I suggest something by Sibelius?
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:57 PM   #42
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^Not that accessible. My idea was to do something that people wouldn't be too put off with, but would still offer something they hadn't heard before, and might have to analyze a bit differently than tonal music, hence Stravinsky or Bartok.

The big problem is scores, because unless I do something really early, there's not much to choose from that's free.
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:09 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
The big problem is scores, because unless I do something really early, there's not much to choose from that's free.



How about Bartok's String Quartets?
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:52 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
^Not that accessible. My idea was to do something that people wouldn't be too put off with, but would still offer something they hadn't heard before, and might have to analyze a bit differently than tonal music, hence Stravinsky or Bartok.

The big problem is scores, because unless I do something really early, there's not much to choose from that's free.


I have a link to Bartoks Concerto for orchestra.

5th movement sucks tho.
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:10 PM   #45
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It's not access so much as passing around copyrighted material for download, which they frown upon here

A Bartok quartet might be possible, his first couple should be PD, too.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:13 PM   #46
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Well, sure, but that is a culturally specific concern. Prog rock/metal, for example, has no consideration for coherent form.


So, prog rock (or metal for that matter) is incoherent and formless? Both genres (even at their worst) will follow a structure that results in something perceivable and comprehensible by a listener. Tbh, I would say that some prog rock is possibly more interesting from a formal point of view than some of the most mediocre composers of the Classical era.

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Well, this is getting too subjective. We can all agree that form, at its most basic definition, is about the structure and order in which musical material is laid out. Following that definition, it really is just about rounded binary, or sonata, or theme and variation, song, etc. In that sense, any monkey can follow a form.


I don't think anyone could find two musicologists that could agree on a definition for form. My analysis tutor set us the following question:
"Bach's Adagio from the G minor Sonata for solo violin, and his Prelude in E major from Book I of WTK have the same form. Or is it structure? What implications would either of these assertions have?"

Now, these two pieces follow more or less identical tonal progressions, and employ very similar contrapuntal manipulations to accomplish these. For the purposes of this essay, I decided to define form in a way which related more towards it's usage in Art, which relates much more directly to what we perceive, rather than what we interpret, or what we comprehend through knowledge. From this definition, it makes it almost meaningless to compare these two pieces, as they clearly will be perceived in very different ways.

I was slightly playing devil's advocate, and I realize that a large proportion of the musical world use form and structure interchangeably. This is really a question of semantics rather than any conceptual differences, but don't you prefer the idea that a form relates to an individual work (and incorporating all musical, and possibly extramusical aspects of it), whilst structure would refer to the order of events that takes place within a given musical style? These definitions relate far better to their real world definitions, IMO.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by National_Anthem
So, prog rock (or metal for that matter) is incoherent and formless? Both genres (even at their worst) will follow a structure that results in something perceivable and comprehensible by a listener.


I tend to glaze over everything Xiaoxi says with regards music outside the realms of classical and jazz ever since he claimed that Metallica were a precursor to death metal. But yeah I know you have a dismissive attitude towards prog X-man but even a cursory familiarity with the classic bands would tell you that it isn't just formless mush.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:46 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by National_Anthem
So, prog rock (or metal for that matter) is incoherent and formless? Both genres (even at their worst) will follow a structure that results in something perceivable and comprehensible by a listener. Tbh, I would say that some prog rock is possibly more interesting from a formal point of view than some of the most mediocre composers of the Classical era.
Again, this is needless semantics. Like JRF and I talked about, the practical reason for my definition of form is so that I can separate and highlight the concept of flow.

And of course prog isn't formless. It's just that there is no consideration for development, making each section within the long form essentially a standalone, unrelated to each other. That's what I meant by incoherent form. You cannot map any given part to any other in a meaningful way.


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Originally Posted by Nietsche
I tend to glaze over everything Xiaoxi says with regards music outside the realms of classical and jazz ever since he claimed that Metallica were a precursor to death metal. But yeah I know you have a dismissive attitude towards prog X-man but even a cursory familiarity with the classic bands would tell you that it isn't just formless mush.

lol I'm not sure if you know this but I used to be huge into metal and prog when I was in high school. I know what I'm talking about. Metallica is absolutely a precursor to death metal (thrash was the early stage of death metal). Again, it isn't that it's formless, for that is virtually impossible.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:43 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
Again, this is needless semantics. Like JRF and I talked about, the practical reason for my definition of form is so that I can separate and highlight the concept of flow.


I'm not really sure what you're talking about. To my mind, flow is a product of all of the combined elements of a piece of music, and is really no more than a subjective measure of how successful/interesting a piece is to listen to. I don't see how any definition of structure or form that I've come across really disturbs the ability to assess this. And I'm sort of with JRF on this one, I'm not sure how it is possible to separate form/structure from flow.

Just as an aside, have you read "Sonata Forms" by Charles Rosen?
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:54 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by National_Anthem
I'm not really sure what you're talking about. To my mind, flow is a product of all of the combined elements of a piece of music, and is really no more than a subjective measure of how successful/interesting a piece is to listen to. I don't see how any definition of structure or form that I've come across really disturbs the ability to assess this. And I'm sort of with JRF on this one, I'm not sure how it is possible to separate form/structure from flow.

Just as an aside, have you read "Sonata Forms" by Charles Rosen?

More semantics...

Look, I just tried to categorize it in a practical way that will bring it to the attention of most people regardless of what kind of music they have in mind. A lot of people may be wondering why their music drags on, or some parts are not working well with others, etc. I just verbalized those concerns and packed them into a tangible representation: flow, for the sake of simple and "visual" explanation. If you actually read the OP, you'll see that I established the working definition of flow for the purpose of this article. I'm not interested in arguing about higher abstractions such as what exactly is form, etc, because that does not really help anybody in practical, immediate terms.

And no I haven't read that.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:39 PM   #51
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Sorry if it came across as just jumping on a couple of slightly tangential things that you'd said, it's just those are things that I've been thinking a lot about recently that came up in the discussion, and I haven't yet had a chance to read your analysis thoroughly (I missed the box where you explained your definition of flow).

I didn't mean the tone of my posts to sound quite as contrary as they probably came across.

Also, do you not think that a substantial portion of analysis in any field is necessarily tied up in semantics?

And you should definitely read it, I think you'd enjoy it.
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:07 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by National_Anthem
Sorry if it came across as just jumping on a couple of slightly tangential things that you'd said, it's just those are things that I've been thinking a lot about recently that came up in the discussion, and I haven't yet had a chance to read your analysis thoroughly (I missed the box where you explained your definition of flow).

I didn't mean the tone of my posts to sound quite as contrary as they probably came across.

Also, do you not think that a substantial portion of analysis in any field is necessarily tied up in semantics?

And you should definitely read it, I think you'd enjoy it.

Well, if you read further, you'll see that JRF and I basically agreed regarding form/flow. And what you say isn't wrong either since you're essentially saying the same thing. But again, my concern here is mostly practical and in general terms so that people (ie not composition majors and advanced classical musicians) can understand. Those higher abstractions regarding form, etc can be for another thread if you really want to talk about it

With that in mind, I absolutely don't think this article and topic should be tied up in semantics. It is all about whatever gets the message across in the simplest and clearest way possible.

And I will check out the book (?).
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:22 AM   #53
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just finished reading this
im bookmarkign this for reference
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Old 12-24-2012, 03:55 AM   #54
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so, why do we get the shit we get on UG's front page and not this?
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:49 AM   #55
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so, why do we get the shit we get on UG's front page and not this?

Have you read the comments on front page articles?
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:03 AM   #56
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This is great!

Any plans for any more of these in the future?
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:14 AM   #57
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This is great!

Any plans for any more of these in the future?

Well uh....I'll get to the harmonic analysis eventually lol...

Caught up with another project right now.

Don't know if there will be more analysis like this for a bit...who knows
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:49 PM   #58
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Finally got around to read all of this. Absolutely loving it, you point out so many important aspects to consider, I should be revisiting this regularly!
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:48 PM   #59
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Finally got around to checking this out man, sorry it took me over a month to get to lol. Really great read man, it was incredibly insightful for me both as an amateur composer as well as a novice analyst.

I'm think I'm really going to start hanging out in this forum more. I'm trying to develop my analysis skills more (I just finished my analysis of Beethoven's 9th last week and I'm starting on Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique), but I'm still really inexperienced both in my analysis abilities as well as my knowledge of traditional repertoire. This also made me starting thinking about musical flow in the terms you described and it honestly made a few light bulbs go off in my mind as my eyes shot open haha

Looking forward to your harmonic analysis if you ever get around to it!
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Old 01-20-2014, 04:51 PM   #60
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Jesus Christ, how someone can dislike Chopin?
I hope all these posts was ironic.

OK, you can dislike him, but questioning his composing skills makes you look like a dork without any musical knowledge or common sense.

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