Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 12-11-2012, 06:10 PM   #1
ArtistLion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
How do you know which melody is in which scale?

From:
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/less...ar_methods.html

'The intro really shows how Page likes to fingerpick arpeggios. The solo is based on the A Minor Pentatonic Scale. Sometimes he would add an F too, but if you look at the A Minor Pentatonic Scale you will see that if you change the E to an F you get the F Major Pentatonic Scale. Jimmy used a lot of pentatonic scales in his solos as you will see as we examine more of his solos.

Led Zeppelin - Stairway To Heaven
Solo:
|----------5---------------|------------------8--8-|
|------------8-5-----------|-------------8b10------|
|---7b9----------7-5---7p5-|-----------------------|
|--------------------7-----|-7p5-------------------|
|--------------------------|----8------------------|
|--------------------------|-----------------------|

|--8b10---8--5 -----8--10-|-8-----------------------5-------|
|---------------8b10-------|---10-8----8h10------------8-5---|
|--------------------------|--------10-----------7b9-------7-|
|--------------------------|---------------------------------|
|--------------------------|---------------------------------|
|--------------------------|---------------------------------|

|----------------------------|----5------------------------|
|----------------------------|------8-5--------------------|
|-5---7p5------------5---5-5-|----------7-5--7p5-----------|
|---7-----7-5---5-7----7-----|-5------------7----7p5-7p5---|
|-------------7--------------|---------------------------8-|
|----------------------------|-----------------------------|

|---------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------13-|
|---------10-------------------12----12-14----|
|------10----12-10----10-12/14----14----------|
|-8/12-------------12-------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------|

|------------------------15b17-15-12----------------|
|--15b17-15-13--15-13-13-------------15b17-15-13----|
|------------------------------------------------14-|
|---------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------|

|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-13-15b17b15p13----13-15b17b15p13----13---15b17b15p13----13--15b17b15p13----|
|----------------14----------------14------------------14-----------------14-|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-13-15b17b15p13----13--15b17b15p13----13--15b17b15p13----13--15b17b15p13----|
|----------------14-----------------14-----------------14-----------------14-|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

|------------------------------------------15b17--|
|-13--15b17b15p13----13---15b17b15p13----13-------|
|-----------------14------------------14----------|
|-------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------|

|-b17b15-12---12--------------------------------15--|
|-----------15---15--13----13-15-13---13--15b17-----|
|-----------------------14----------14--------------|
|---------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------|

-----------------------------|-----------17----------------------------------|
-15b17b15p13----13/12--13/10-|--------20----20-20----------------------------|
-------------14--------------|--19b21-21----------19b21b19p17---19--17----19-|
-----------------------------|--------------------------------19-------19----|
-----------------------------|-----------------------------------------------|
-----------------------------|-----------------------------------------------|

|--------------------|--------------------------------|--------------|
|--------------------|--------------------------------|--------------|
|-19b21--13/12 13/10-|--14b17--14b17-14--12--14--12-12b14------------|
|--------------------|--------------------------------|--------------|
|--------------------|--------------------------------|--------------|
|--------------------|--------------------------------|--------------|

|-----------------------------------|----------8/7--8/5--|
|-----------------------------------|--------------------|
|-10b14----10b12b10-9-7----7--------|-7-9-7--------------|
|-----------------------10----10----|-------10-7---------|
|-----------------------------------|--------------------|
|-----------------------------------|--------------------|

|----20-p17------20-p17------20-p17------20-p17------20-p17-----20b22-|
|-17--------17----------17----------17----------17----------17--------|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------| '
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|

Why does it say that the solo is based on the A minor pentatonic scale? First of all the starting note is a D in 3rd position. Wouldn't it be better to say that it's based on 3rd position D minor/major pentatonic which flows over other pentatonic scales?
ArtistLion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 06:19 PM   #2
Xiaoxi
Indeed.
 
Xiaoxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bodymore, Murdaland
The simple answer is that melodies are not based on scales. They're based on a myriad of other things, but not scales.
__________________
"Man, modes 'n' scales ain't got no users, only abusers." - X.X. Little

Analyzing Brahms: Insights to Help Us Improve Our Music

My New Workstation
Xiaoxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 06:33 PM   #3
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtistLion
Why does it say that the solo is based on the A minor pentatonic scale? First of all the starting note is a D in 3rd position. Wouldn't it be better to say that it's based on 3rd position D minor/major pentatonic which flows over other pentatonic scales?

The key of the song is A minor. The scale that he's using is the Am pentatonic scale (though he isn't confined to it, because scales aren't the end-all-be-all of solos or melodies).

What note he starts on doesn't mean anything. He just decided to start on D. Fur Elise is the key of A minor but its first note is an E.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort

Last edited by rockingamer2 : 12-11-2012 at 06:36 PM.
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 06:38 PM   #4
J-Dawg158
UG's Resident Dhampyr
 
J-Dawg158's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
The backing harmony makes it Am.
__________________
I'm an
Engeneer
Enginear
Enginere

I'm Good at Math
J-Dawg158 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 06:40 PM   #5
HotspurJr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
The trick to figuring this out is to stop thinking of a scale as a collection of interchangeable safe notes, but rather to hear it as a series of notes which all have their own individual relationship to the tonic.

You don't hear notes in a void. You hear them in a context. And the context of this solo tells us that we're minor, AND that "A" is the home note.

Listen for the resolution. The resolution is NOT on F. It's on A. It sounds minor. Therefore it's Am, not F major or any other scale that contains those notes.
HotspurJr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 06:44 PM   #6
griffRG7321
Forever Bulking
 
griffRG7321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Darkplace Hospital
Most melodies are based on consonant chord tones and dissonant decorative tones, not scales.
__________________
Quote:
Mario 'Big Dawg' Williams: "I come to you, venerable master, in order to be introduced to the rules and principles of music"

Barbeesha Latoya Jackson: "Awh hell naw mutha fuka, u wanna learn da art of composition all up in here?
griffRG7321 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 05:12 PM   #7
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtistLion
From:
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/less...ar_methods.html

'The intro really shows how Page likes to fingerpick arpeggios. The solo is based on the A Minor Pentatonic Scale. Sometimes he would add an F too, but if you look at the A Minor Pentatonic Scale you will see that if you change the E to an F you get the F Major Pentatonic Scale. Jimmy used a lot of pentatonic scales in his solos as you will see as we examine more of his solos.

Why does it say that the solo is based on the A minor pentatonic scale? First of all the starting note is a D in 3rd position. Wouldn't it be better to say that it's based on 3rd position D minor/major pentatonic which flows over other pentatonic scales?

The F note belongs to A minor scale. A minor pentatonic is five notes of A minor scale.

A B C D E F G (Bold notes are Am pentatonic.)

And the scale is all over the neck, it doesn't matter in which position you play. You are just playing the five or six or seven notes in different octaves in different parts of the fretboard. There are only five notes in Am pentatonic scale and seven notes in A minor scale.

And yeah, the solo is mostly played using notes in A minor pentatonic. But this all really depends on the chord progression, not the notes you use. You don't play F major pentatonic scale when you are in the key of Am, you are just playing A minor scale (all the notes in F major pentatonic can be found in A minor scale). You must see the whole picture (what every instrument is playing) not just the guitar solo and what scale is used (the scale doesn't even matter). The mistake that many guitarists make is just to think what scale somebody's playing when there are more things in soloing than just scales: rhythm, melody, background rhythm and chords. Yes, you "use" scales to build those melodies and every melody belongs to a scale. And scales are good "tools" to find the sound you are looking for. But they aren't everything about soloing (and you can find the same notes by using chord tones and consonance and dissonance).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c

Last edited by MaggaraMarine : 12-12-2012 at 05:15 PM.
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 05:24 PM   #8
ArtistLion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Wow this theory about consonant and dissonant tones is pretty interesting. Do you guys know if it's possible for 2 dissonant chords (like 1 chord for guitar, and 1 for bass) to become consonant if they are combined?
ArtistLion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 06:18 PM   #9
The Madcap
Classical Guitarist
 
The Madcap's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtistLion
Wow this theory about consonant and dissonant tones is pretty interesting. Do you guys know if it's possible for 2 dissonant chords (like 1 chord for guitar, and 1 for bass) to become consonant if they are combined?
No, dissonance is an unstable tone combination (such as playing the notes C and Db harmonically). If you're putting two dissonant chords together, you're just adding more instability. Consonance is basically tone combinations involving perfect 4ths and 5ths (such as C and G), unisons and octaves, major 3rds and 6ths (such as C and E (3rd), or inverted E and C (6th)), or minor 3rds and 6ths (such as A and C (3rd), or the inverted C and A to make a 6th).

Example of a consonant chord would be simply your major and minor chords. Power chords are also consonant. If you play it and listen, it just sounds stable by itself. Perfect 4ths (such as E and A) are viewed as dissonant in certain contexts in classical music, but nobody cares about Mozart.

An example of a dissonant chord would be something like a half-diminished chord (my favorite kind of chord), which I'll draw out for you here:

|--
|-3
|-2
|-3
|-2
|--

Spelled out, this would be B, F, A and D. It doesn't really sound stable like a major chord. It'd be more difficult to resolve a song with a chord like that.
__________________

Voted UG's best threadstarter 2009, 2010, 2011 & 2012 (I know, at this point it's sad).
Voted UG's best Male dresser 2011.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrashtasic15
Ahem, no offense to any of the fags mentioned.

Last edited by The Madcap : 12-12-2012 at 06:20 PM.
The Madcap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 07:33 PM   #10
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockingamer2
The key of the song is A minor. The scale that he's using is the Am pentatonic scale (though he isn't confined to it, because scales aren't the end-all-be-all of solos or melodies).

What note he starts on doesn't mean anything. He just decided to start on D. Fur Elise is the key of A minor but its first note is an E.


+1

It resolves to A minor, that is how the notes will be heard.

For another example the lullaby song if played in C, starts on E. That does not make it phrygian or Spanish sounding, it just starts on E.
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 11:23 PM   #11
macashmack
Maskcashmack
 
macashmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Xiaoxi had this in his sig. He might still, and ill overlook the fact that he called me a ****ing Moron for trolling (Even though i deserved it).

Modes and scales are dumb and useless. Stop learning them. Seriously.

show
macashmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 11:57 PM   #12
Xiaoxi
Indeed.
 
Xiaoxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bodymore, Murdaland
Quote:
Originally Posted by macashmack
Xiaoxi had this in his sig. He might still
wat

can you not see sigs or something?

Quote:
and ill overlook the fact that he called me a ****ing Moron for trolling (Even though i deserved it).
I was trollin 2
__________________
"Man, modes 'n' scales ain't got no users, only abusers." - X.X. Little

Analyzing Brahms: Insights to Help Us Improve Our Music

My New Workstation
Xiaoxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 12:11 AM   #13
macashmack
Maskcashmack
 
macashmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
wat

can you not see sigs or something?


I was too lazy to check and see if you still had it and too stupid to remember if you did

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
I was trollin 2


macashmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 05:35 AM   #14
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Yes,
I'm sure that every successful composer in history has never thought about scales when composing music, or when writing melody. Certainly, they didn't spend countless hours learning major scales in both hands, over two octaves on piano just so that they could never use those scales in any real musical context.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 10:35 AM   #15
ibanez1511
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
The TS gave the example in TAB.
I am not knocking tab, but i feel the answer to the question can be found easily through learning to sightread standard notation.
ibanez1511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 03:57 PM   #16
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Yes,
I'm sure that every successful composer in history has never thought about scales when composing music, or when writing melody. Certainly, they didn't spend countless hours learning major scales in both hands, over two octaves on piano just so that they could never use those scales in any real musical context.

When you compose, you don't think in scales (OK, some people do when they noodle around on their guitar). You might use them to find the notes you hear in your head. Composing should happen in your head, not on the fingerboard or keyboard or whatever. So scales are useful if you want to find the notes fast. You might notice that "this melody follows the notes in this scale." Also you can play those cool pentatonic sequences.

Though I'm not sure if you were sarcastic.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 04:54 PM   #17
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
When you compose, you don't think in scales (OK, some people do when they noodle around on their guitar). You might use them to find the notes you hear in your head. Composing should happen in your head, not on the fingerboard or keyboard or whatever. So scales are useful if you want to find the notes fast. You might notice that "this melody follows the notes in this scale." Also you can play those cool pentatonic sequences.

Though I'm not sure if you were sarcastic.

Hey, thanks for telling me what you DON'T and DO do when you compose.
Do you have any books on the subject, or a breadth of musical works that I could refer to as a reference? If you're prescribing the rules by which one is allowed to compose, I'm sure you're an authority on the matter.

Thanks.
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 05:05 PM   #18
Xiaoxi
Indeed.
 
Xiaoxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bodymore, Murdaland
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Yes,
I'm sure that every successful composer in history has never thought about scales when composing music, or when writing melody. Certainly, they didn't spend countless hours learning major scales in both hands, over two octaves on piano just so that they could never use those scales in any real musical context.

Well, that's the thing though. It really is just the major scale. And it's really for physical exercise. It's not that scales aren't used, it's that it is such an elementary aspect of music that doesn't really need to be given the disproportionate amount of weight that novices on this forum tend to give. For those professional composers, they have no need to think about scales, not because they've practiced it so much that it is second nature, but because it is so inherently simple and basic in concept. Yes, I say this even when considering more modern music such as Debussy. A literary writer does not write a novel by slaving over every single letter. They are concerned with wording and prose, among other things. Same applies for music composition.

The issue isn't scales/modes. The issue is that novices grossly overestimate the role and complexity of this concept.
__________________
"Man, modes 'n' scales ain't got no users, only abusers." - X.X. Little

Analyzing Brahms: Insights to Help Us Improve Our Music

My New Workstation
Xiaoxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 05:18 PM   #19
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
Think of scales of stepping stones on a path: helpful and you're sure to at least get a decent footing. But those stepping stones become a limitation (though often very helpful), when you want to really explore.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 05:19 PM   #20
chronowarp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
Well, that's the thing though. It really is just the major scale. And it's really for physical exercise. It's not that scales aren't used, it's that it is such an elementary aspect of music that doesn't really need to be given the disproportionate amount of weight that novices on this forum tend to give. For those professional composers, they have no need to think about scales, not because they've practiced it so much that it is second nature, but because it is so inherently simple and basic in concept. Yes, I say this even when considering more modern music such as Debussy. A literary writer does not write a novel by slaving over every single letter. They are concerned with wording and prose, among other things. Same applies for music composition.

The issue isn't scales/modes. The issue is that novices grossly overestimate the role and complexity of this concept.

Hit the nail on the head!
__________________
Check out my band Socrates and the Lava Gods
chronowarp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:53 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.