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Old 12-11-2012, 03:23 PM   #1
ramorite
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right to work in michigan

i guess theres this big protest going on right now about the right to work bill in michigan, like 13,000 people are there right now. what do you guys think about right to work and union rights?
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:24 PM   #2
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Leave Bill alone, man. He's trying his best.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:25 PM   #3
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"Right to work" is a bs propaganda term, it's anti-right to organize.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:29 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by ErikLensherr
"Right to work" is a bs propaganda term, it's anti-right to organize.


Utter nonsense. It changes the right to organize or to join a union not at all, it simply gives the WORKER the choice.

And that's what unions are all about right? The worker...

If a union is good for the worker, they join, if not they don't. Simple as that.

If they unions can't provide value to the worker, they shouldn't exist.

Forcing union membership is crap, and always has been.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:31 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Arby911
Utter nonsense. It changes the right to organize or to join a union not at all, it simply gives the WORKER the choice.

And that's what unions are all about right? The worker...

If a union is good for the worker, they join, if not they don't. Simple as that.

If they unions can't provide value to the worker, they shouldn't exist.

Forcing union membership is crap, and always has been.

it's nowhere near as simple as that.
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Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:33 PM   #6
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If you see the benefit in joining the union, then you join. If you don't see the benefit, then you don't join. That's the law.

This should actually help those in a union. Now, if the union wants more people, then they will change and adapt so that more people will see the benefit in joining the union.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by darb0114
If you see the benefit in joining the union, then you join. If you don't see the benefit, then you don't join. That's the law.

This should actually help those in a union. Now, if the union wants more people, then they will change and adapt so that more people will see the benefit in joining the union.

Or, if you don't fancy paying the dues, but there's already a strong union presence, then you don't join and still get the benefits.
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Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:35 PM   #8
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Or, if you don't fancy paying the dues, but there's already a strong union presence, then you don't join and still get the benefits.


The unions don't pay you, the company that employs you does.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:43 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by darb0114
The unions don't pay you, the company that employs you does.

yes?

and?

If there's a strong union presence and you choose not to join, then you don't pay the dues. But when the strong union manages to negotiate a change in company procedure to improve safety or to improve health benefits, you still benefit.

So you end up with people who benefit without paying. When people catch wind of this practice it undermines the union strength as people say "I fancy giving that a try" and so maybe next time, the union doesn't have the power to negotiate strict machine inspection routines before work begins or doesn't have the power to argue against a company wide pay freeze so the owner can buy a new boat.

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Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemoninfluence
yes?

and?

If there's a strong union presence and you choose not to join, then you don't pay the dues. But when the strong union manages to negotiate a change in company procedure to improve safety or to improve health benefits, you still benefit.

So you end up with people who benefit without paying. When people catch wind of this practice it undermines the union strength as people say "I fancy giving that a try" and so maybe next time, the union doesn't have the power to negotiate strict machine inspection routines before work begins or doesn't have the power to argue against a company wide pay freeze so the owner can buy a new boat.


Freedom to do what you like > Protecting against your hypothetical situation
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:50 PM   #11
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Arby911
Utter nonsense. It changes the right to organize or to join a union not at all, it simply gives the WORKER the choice.

And that's what unions are all about right? The worker...

If a union is good for the worker, they join, if not they don't. Simple as that.

If they unions can't provide value to the worker, they shouldn't exist.

Forcing union membership is crap, and always has been.

Haw, who's forcing anyone to join a union? That's actually already been against the law for many decades.
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Last edited by ErikLensherr : 12-11-2012 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:54 PM   #13
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If I am working at a place that is unsafe, I will take action to make it safe, won't perform the unsafe action, or I will simply not work there. I'd sure hope others feel the same.

As a business owner side of things, I will want my work/job safe so that people will want to work for my company. The better the job looks, the better quality of people will want to work there, the better my company. These things naturally happen in the free market.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darb0114
If I am working at a place that is unsafe, I will take action to make it safe, won't perform the unsafe action, or I will simply not work there. I'd sure hope others feel the same.

As a business owner side of things, I will want my work/job safe so that people will want to work for my company. The better the job looks, the better quality of people will want to work there, the better my company. These things naturally happen in the free market.

Totally, man
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darb0114
If I am working at a place that is unsafe, I will take action to make it safe, won't perform the unsafe action, or I will simply not work there. I'd sure hope others feel the same.


yeah, in this economy, you have the ability to walk out of a job and will have plenty of opportunities to walk right into another one which

Quote:
As a business owner side of things, I will want my work/job safe so that people will want to work for my company. The better the job looks, the better quality of people will want to work there, the better my company. These things naturally happen in the free market.

even if we accepted that these things happen in a free market, the market isn't free.

And while some may follow this logic, there are enough shareholders out there who have no concern for the business as long as it makes them money. And the only way to take on the giants who usually do this, is to unionise.
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Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darb0114
If I am working at a place that is unsafe, I will take action to make it safe, won't perform the unsafe action, or I will simply not work there. I'd sure hope others feel the same.

As a business owner side of things, I will want my work/job safe so that people will want to work for my company. The better the job looks, the better quality of people will want to work there, the better my company. These things naturally happen in the free market.

What kind of planet do you live on? What about all the workers in Malaysian iPod factories who were committing suicide at such a rate the factory owners had to put bars on the windows and safety nets in?

Rhetoric like yours is dangerous and common of all conservatives - they wait for harm to be done and for society to adjust. "Liberals" can see "holy shit this is wrong" and try to improve things.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by magnus_maximus
Rhetoric like yours is dangerous and common of all conservatives - they wait for harm to be done and for society to adjust. "Liberals" can see "holy shit this is wrong" and try to improve things.


Oh dear god
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:02 PM   #18
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So basically what these kind of things do is create massive free rider problems.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:09 PM   #19
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I have some experience in this as a negotiator for management in collective bargaining. I can tell you that some things unions do are great but at the end of the day they are a business and like any business they strive to make money.
Health and Safety? Please, it depends on the company. A lot of unions blab on and on about health and safety but good companies already have those practices in place before a union enters the picture.
Now, in other countries I can see that unions are sorely needed. However, in the Western world unions seem to be less needed than they were. For the love of God, in Canada the public sector has been able to hold jobs for their staff on our tax dollar, jobs which many would argue are not needed with salaries that far exceed those in the private sector while private sector employees suffer.
Great, the unions have been able to keep those people at ridiculous salaries with over the top collective agreements but that's really all they seem to do these days; protect a few at the cost of many. When you think about it isn't that the exact same point they've rallied against since their inception? How hypocritical.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:14 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by badfish_lewis
I have some experience in this as a negotiator for management in collective bargaining. I can tell you that some things unions do are great but at the end of the day they are a business and like any business they strive to make money.
Health and Safety? Please, it depends on the company. A lot of unions blab on and on about health and safety but good companies already have those practices in place before a union enters the picture.
Now, in other countries I can see that unions are sorely needed. However, in the Western world unions seem to be less needed than they were. For the love of God, in Canada the public sector has been able to hold jobs for their staff on our tax dollar, jobs which many would argue are not needed with salaries that far exceed those in the private sector while private sector employees suffer.
Great, the unions have been able to keep those people at ridiculous salaries with over the top collective agreements but that's really all they seem to do these days; protect a few at the cost of many. When you think about it isn't that the exact same point they've rallied against since their inception? How hypocritical.


Yes, this is great. Nobody is saying that unions should be abolished and disappear. It is just about the choice.

A good/successful company will succeed for the quality of service/product they provide and the positive working conditions/wages/benefits they give back to their employees.
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