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Old 12-14-2012, 04:45 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaldud536
No but the aim for banning guns is to reduce these possibilities. Nothing is certain in this universe but possibilities can be influenced.

Certainly, and I agree that it would reduce the likelihood of these kinds of incidents, or at least he death toll amounting from them. It might stop the people who are just pissed off and fed up and wanna go shoot up some schools, but for people who are genuinely suffering from mental illnesses that make them do subhuman things like this, which is I bet most of these cases, I doubt it would help THAT much.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:45 PM   #62
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Element, I couldn't find it. I feel like LemonInfluence or someone smart posted it, but it might be in a different shooting thread. I'm not sure.

Sorry :/


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ur all shit posted it so it wasn't just some random ass dumb person fwiw [i think].


Knew it was someone smart. Can't find it, though.

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Old 12-14-2012, 04:45 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
Well that proves my point then, that guns are causing a lot of problems in the US.

Guns aren't the problem, the same reason people are committing shootings is the same as stabbings, vehicular homicides, etc
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:46 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by element4433
It's not guns though.


When you're continually having multiple-murders using firearms clearly firearms are a problem.

How often do you hear of a mass murder involving a ******* knife or baseball bat?
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:46 PM   #65
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:47 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by DimebagLivesOn
Guns aren't the problem, the same reason people are committing shootings is the same as stabbings, vehicular homicides, etc


Guns only purpose is to kill/gravely injure someone else.

By the logic that these massacres are done by insane people (which I share) why then even give these lunatics an opportunity to kill 15 instead of 3 with say a knife?
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:47 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by bradulator
but for people who are genuinely suffering from mental illnesses that make them do subhuman things like this, which is I bet most of these cases, I doubt it would help THAT much.

But it makes them harder for them to kill so easily. If I wanted to kill my neighbor right now I would have to really think it through because the most deadly thing in my house is a ******* knife.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:48 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by bradulator
I agree with you. But maybe he would have been willing to go and get a gun illegally, which would be a possibility if gun control laws were enacted, he would have still done it whether guns are legal for people like him or not.

It's certainly not as simple as "ban guns and it's all good"

Hence why I specifically stated that I didn't believe that gun control laws would have necessarily stopped this from happening.

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Originally Posted by zeek7pc
Tim McVeigh used a ryder truck. The gun is just a tool for a crazy person. Remove the tool and they can't commit the crime right???? Don't know if anyone owns a tool box but I'll bet there's more than one thing in there. Just my thoughts.

This guy wasn't Timothy McVeigh. The shooter in Connecticut, by all indication, was in this to kill a small, specific group of people and used the most available tool for his job. If this was premeditated, it wasn't over the long term. McVeigh was out to kill as many people as possible and planned his attack over a long period of time. He also claimed in a letter from prison that he believed he would have used a gun to begin a war of attrition against the US government if he had read Unintended Consequences before he enacted his attacks.
(source: American Terrorist, p. 304)
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:48 PM   #69
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I understand that people don't want to lose the rights to own guns. My thoughts are that protecting yourself, your loved ones, and your property don't require excessive firepower. Owning a handgun, a shotgun or a hunting rifle is one thing - all of these are just fine for protecting yourself - but an automatic assault rifle? Unless you're fighting a whole mexican drug cartel, there's no need for the average American to have access to such deadly guns.

In the wake of what happened today, I'd be pressed to go even further and say that maybe BULLETS are what need to be controlled if people can't reconcile with the idea of banning guns.
Note: I have no idea if the shooter of today's tragedy used automatic weapons but I know for certain that the guy who killed those people in the Colorado movie theater during the Batman premier did use fully-automatic weapons.

My final thoughts: God, I don't pray to you often but please let Ted Nugent and Dave Mustaine keep their big ******ed mouths shut. I really don't need to hear their opinion on how this massacre is 1. Obama's fault and 2. shouldn't affect gun legislation
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:50 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
When you're continually having multiple-murders using firearms clearly firearms are a problem.

How often do you hear of a mass murder involving a ******* knife or baseball bat?
How about cars?

I'm not saying that guns aren't part of the problem (I support more regulation absolutely). But attacking guns as if that will solve the problem isn't going to fix it. If somebody wants to kill a bunch of people they'll find a way, regardless of ease of gun access.

Fix the culture of violence, Fix structural violence, Fix mental health issues, Fix inequality, Fix the media, and then you'll end the problem.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:50 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by metaldud536
But it makes them harder for them to kill so easily. If I wanted to kill my neighbor right now I would have to really think it through because the most deadly thing in my house is a ******* knife.

yeah, and people who are mentally ill and who are driven to do such subhuman things WILL plan it out like that. That's what makes them different than those who just get pissed off and can't control their anger.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:50 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by WCPhils
How many times has the shooter in a mass shooting actually been killed by some gun owning citizens in the crowd of people?

I can't really ever remember that happening. It's usually that he kills himself, the police kill him, or the police arrest him.


I'm saying that getting a gun illegally may be, to some killers, more "special" or something, more of a "okay here's your shot, make it worth while" scenario. No pun intended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyGenzale
Why would they?

What happens when the Average Joe finds a gun? Well, the possibility for a massacre is all of a sudden made so much easier. When was the last time the through-and-through criminal gangs went to a school/mall and killed 20+ people.

When innocents in the eye of everyone else (the objective crowd) are killed it's almost always some personal issues such as revenge etc involved. And that is almost always done by a random lunatic who could've easily been stopped if he didn't have a gun.

Breivik in Norway on the other hand planned what he did for years, he knew exactly what he was doing and that was not a spur of the moment thingy. I honestly however believe that a lot of these personal issues/revenge/bullied pupil coming back could be stopped by a stricter gun control.


See my response above. Also, there are other things than bats, knives. Ever heard of bombs? Fire? Chemical weapons? People get a hold of these things and wield them, regardless of their illegality.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:50 PM   #73
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So strange, that americans have that innate need to protect themselces at all the time. Are people genuinely scared of strangers in America?

I have never ever been scared that I'd be murdered/robbed at gun point/whatever and I still live in a country where we don't talk to strangers. Maybe that's why, we are too socially awkward that we don't dare/want to rob someone else because that would involve talking to your fellow man.

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Originally Posted by Carnivean
I'm saying that getting a gun illegally may be, to some killers, more "special" or something, more of a "okay here's your shot, make it worth while" scenario. No pun intended.



See my response above. Also, there are other things than bats, knives. Ever heard of bombs? Fire? Chemical weapons? People get a hold of these things and wield them, regardless of their illegality.


Bombs? Chemical weapons? Really?
Are you really bringing these in as arguments now? You fail to see the point.

A knife, a gun or a bat is easily accesible, can easily be transported, hidden, disposed of and is not expensive whatsoever. A bomb or a chemical weapon is a ****ing tool in a straight out war. It's strange that there's not more chemical weapons massacres here in Europe. Because, people must function quite similar here to americans. I wonder why people are not getting hold of such thigns as some chemical weapons more often around here then.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:51 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by jonathan666666
I hate saying this, but what if the Jews had firearms in Germany in the 30's and 40's. Things would have been a bit different. This applies to any genocide throughout history.

Please tell me that this is a joke.



Here's my two cents:

There's absolutely nothing you can do now, world. You've made all the guns, they're already there. Taking them away would result in their sale on the black market (besides you'll kind of have to turn the country into a police state for that). Making stricter laws about it would result in the black market profiting off it. Doing the same thing you've been doing will result in the same amount of deaths as before. Making lax gun control laws? Baaaaad idea.

You can do the whole Patrick "take all the guns, and put them somewhere else" but that simply isn't possible (at least not if you worked at it for 100 years, and as the "war on drugs" has shown, the effects aren't great if your aim is to get people to stop using them).

We've made our bed, now we have to lie in it. Or something.

Enjoy all the horrible deaths!
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:51 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by DimebagLivesOn
Guns aren't the problem, the same reason people are committing shootings is the same as stabbings, vehicular homicides, etc

Guns, besides for shooting targets I guess, are only meant to kill things though. Cars and knives aren't
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:52 PM   #76
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:53 PM   #77
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I would sooo take my chances in a world where crazy people had to use bats, knives, forks, etc. to try to carry out their killing sprees.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:54 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by LightxGrenade
I understand that people don't want to lose the rights to own guns. My thoughts are that protecting yourself, your loved ones, and your property don't require excessive firepower.


Protecting them from what? Seriously, what possible situation is there where you whipping out a gun is going to make your family more safe?

Home invasion: well, they're probably armed as well, and almost certainly more willing to use it.

Mass murder in a public place: the other guy is clearly happy to kill, and you adding more bullets into the fray in a blind attempt to be a hero is just going to get more people killed.

Government conspiracy to murder you (I include this because apparently this is a big fear in America): yeah, I think the government has better weapons and training than you.

Animal attack: Mhmm, potentially.

Guerrilla terrorist force sent by the commies: they're better trained than you and more willing to kill.

Robot rebellion: they're made of metal, good luck fending them off with your 9mm.

Alien invasion: they're clearly more technologically advanced, your weapon isn't likely to help.

Second coming: it's mother****ing Jesus, what you gonna do?
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:55 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by ErikLensherr
I would sooo take my chances in a world where crazy people had to use bats, knives, forks, etc. to try to carry out their killing sprees.

In what world is this? One where guns aren't even manufactured or sold illegally?
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:57 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Carnivean
I'm saying that getting a gun illegally may be, to some killers, more "special" or something, more of a "okay here's your shot, make it worth while" scenario. No pun intended.

That't not what I meant.

What I'm saying is that a lot of people talk about, well then only the mass murders will have guns and we won't be able to defend ourselves. I don't see how that line of reasoning works since you almost never (and I can't think of any) here about some gun wielding vigilante killing the rampaging psychopath.

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