Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk > Bandleading
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 12-19-2012, 07:45 AM   #1
sonny bb
UG's New-ish Guy
 
sonny bb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: texas
How to better organize the band

You guys have more or less seen my band form, start practicing, writing, recording and playing live, and now we've started traveling out of town Our first out of town show went very well (we ate a 37" pizza!!). We've been getting awesome compliments and reviews from around our area and we play very well together. We're a little over a year old and we've decided that the new year will mark big moves for us on many fronts, but it's clear that we don't have every duck in the row. Mainly:
Money, well, that's only one member....
Recordings, 3 of us want to do home recordings, the other 2 want big studio. We've looked at many pros and cons to both.
Merchandise, whether or not to start dealing with it.
Traveling, that one member again...come back to money though.
any advice on these subject would be appreciated!!!
__________________
:
"Stop shooting me!!!GAHHHH!!!"
<(0_0<)(>0_0)> FU
^(0_0)^^(0_0)^ Sion
(>0_0)><(0_0<) HA!!!
<(*~*)>
sonny bb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 08:50 AM   #2
Myshadow46_2
Join the pack.
 
Myshadow46_2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
IMO

Get the best recording you can afford.
Merchandise is good once you have music to sell as well.

One member having issues with money is a hard one to solve. Do you pay for him and let it slide? Do you pay for him and dock his ownership of whatever the payment is for? Do you pay for him and get him to pay you back? Do you refuse to pay for him and get nothing done? Do you kick him out? What would I do? I'd talk to my band and find out the way to go forward.

As a new band it usually all comes down to money i.e. can you afford to get yourself out there in the hopes of making some money a few years down the line?
Myshadow46_2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 10:06 AM   #3
AndyGray
UG Addict
 
AndyGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Shire
Have you tried approaching any music production students? You can usually get into a fairly well equipped studio with an optimistic & enthusiastic engineer for pennies.

Home recording can sound very good, but depends if you're producing skills are any good.

Money issues - cannot advise on this as we're all poor

Merchandise - I'd advise you get an EP & more of a following before going into this

Traveling - Ask for your fuel to be paid for when doing gigs, most promoters will!

Good luck & keep rocking! BTW, when the EP is done try submitting it to Thursday Rocks.
AndyGray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 07:19 PM   #4
scguitarking927
Time for a revolution
 
scguitarking927's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SC
I would stay away from home recording personally. It's a debated subject here, but as I always say, are you willing to make a huge money and time investment and but a grand worth of equipment and have the weeks upon weeks to just get some decent results.

Most studios you can get around 8 hours for $400 or so. And they'll be able to give you better results in eight hours than you ever could at home. Shop around though.

As far as merchant, CDs are where I would start. Unless you are gigging a lot, things like t shirts are money pits. I still have shirts from some of my old bands. But if you can find z good deal, it be something to look into. Go local for shirts, you'll find a better deal

As far as money problems go, have him pay when he can, I'm assuming you guys are starting to get paid. You can always budget out like thirty percent of his take that would go towards his end of he expenses.

Traveling can be tough, hopefully someone has a van or SUV. Maybe even see if you can borrow one from a family member or friend. Just split gas with your pay.
__________________
Owner of United Studios

Music Blog
Follow me on Twitter
scguitarking927 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2012, 07:51 AM   #5
sonny bb
UG's New-ish Guy
 
sonny bb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: texas
Well, I've been doing production for solo stuff for a while. way before I started the band. I've gotten a lot of compliments from what I've done, but it comes down to them hearing with their eyes, imo, before they saw what i was recording with, it was all good. I'm newer to computer based recording, but I've been getting some pretty good results, but we've talked about home recording and outside mastering. Would that be something to look into more? I just don't want some studio to rob the songs of their dynamics, as I see becoming a popular trend with many bands. I've been doing it so long by myself, I don't trust anyone else yet

With merch we kind nixed that for a while because of the "no fans" thing. (when I say no fans, I mean not a strong enough fanbase to grace with the title of fans yet)

The money thing. He doesn't want to pay with his own money. He wants to take the money from shows to pay for things, but as we are new comers, we aren't raking it in He doesn't like the idea of using money he gets to support himself for the band.
yeah, we got fuel money, but he was buying a bunch of other stuff. we used his car for gear and another for the rest of the members, but this past show, $40 covered both cars. He was the only one of us bummed for traveling and since that is a part of this music thing...
__________________
:
"Stop shooting me!!!GAHHHH!!!"
<(0_0<)(>0_0)> FU
^(0_0)^^(0_0)^ Sion
(>0_0)><(0_0<) HA!!!
<(*~*)>
sonny bb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2012, 01:36 PM   #6
scguitarking927
Time for a revolution
 
scguitarking927's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SC
That's how I was when I started in a first band, I didn't have a lot of money and didn't want to dish out money when we were making some for shows. It's nice to be able to throw money into a project if you have it, but like your member, I like the idea of reinvesting what you make first, and then worry about the excess expense afterwards.


And it's the polishing the turd philosophy. Even if you recorded yourself and sent it out for mastering you still may not get the results you want. I'd go to a local studio, somebody that has the experience and good equipment and get a couple of songs done. Get a decent mix and then send it out for mastering.

You don't skip on the recordings IMO. Not trying to knock ya or anything, if you guys just wanted to pump out demos and new songs every month, by all means do them yourselves and release them as demos. When it comes to actual recordings for a potential EP or Album though, something you might be selling, go get it done professionally.
__________________
Owner of United Studios

Music Blog
Follow me on Twitter
scguitarking927 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2012, 01:37 AM   #7
TNA
Registered User
 
TNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
I don't know the history of your band as I guess others do, but I'll give my opinion anyways. I'll start with the recordings because that's what I know most about. What exactly is it that makes those guys want the big studio? Is it getting to play in a better room? Is it better mics? I'm assuming you'll still be using your own instruments? There is a best of both worlds scenario here. You mentioned recording at home and then outside mastering. As someone who went to school for recording and does home recordings myself I think you need to record in a studio if you can afford it. What you are actually paying for in a studio is the gear and the room. It's being able to use that big, sound treated live room. It's being able to use those 3,000 dollar mics and most likely more expensive preamps and effects. Sure you may have the knowledge to record at home, and you may be able to make some pretty good recordings with your gear. But if you ever want a professional sound, you need to use professional grade equipment. See how much it is to just record for a day. Then you can mix and master at home, saving you money and giving you control over the mix. This is all if your budget allows it, if not then yes, record at home and start saving up.

As for the money thing. Most bands have money problems. Many many well known bands have broken up because of money disputes. So know that this is a common problem. From what I understand the one guy just doesn't want to use his own money on band related things? That may be a problem, a band in a way is an investment. You need to put in some money to get the most out of it. Whether that be for recording, or gas money, or merch. I've been in bands with guys like that, and the bottom line is this. Unless this guy believes that the band can progress and that his investments will eventually pay of, both in terms of success and in terms of actual money, it's never going to be more than a fun hobby for him. You need to make him see that the band is an investment. Things such as merch are there to not only help promote the band, but to be sold and make money. If he's not paying now, he's never going to pay so either accept it, or get rid of him. The only exception would be if he does a lot of other stuff for the band, like providing the practice space, booking gigs, maintaining your website, etc.
TNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2012, 02:01 AM   #8
sonny bb
UG's New-ish Guy
 
sonny bb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: texas
I write 99% of the music (me and the drummer work out most of the final kinks), I book the shows, have the practice space, now I've started with lyrics and recordings. We collaborate, but for the most part, it's me and I am very particular about how the songs I spend so much energy on are presented. We are a metal band, but I prefer the lo-fi sound, things that sound kinda off and not polished and sorta gritty. That appeals to me more. I'm not a "metal" guy in that sense, but I do want them to have a say, but I want them to see where I'm coming from too, and the members who want to do home recordings see it that way, but the other two want that polished "pro" sound (which, pro quality today sounds like bees in a can with plastic drums to me) Like I said, I think it was a hearing with their eyes thing, because I got a new DAW and all off a sudden it sounded 10x better despite me doing nothing to anything.
He doesn't see playing shows out of town and building a fan base as being as important as making recordings that we aren't likely to see a real profit on. Again, his main deal is profit, which isn't a bad thing to want, but it is unlikely at this phase. Aside from all the compliments we get wherever we play, I don't want him to think that someone is going to "save us" from the local scene because of how awesome we are :P I think he sees that we very well have the potential to progress and really do something with this, and he wants to, but....I don't even know
__________________
:
"Stop shooting me!!!GAHHHH!!!"
<(0_0<)(>0_0)> FU
^(0_0)^^(0_0)^ Sion
(>0_0)><(0_0<) HA!!!
<(*~*)>
sonny bb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2012, 12:08 AM   #9
TNA
Registered User
 
TNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonny bb
I write 99% of the music (me and the drummer work out most of the final kinks), I book the shows, have the practice space, now I've started with lyrics and recordings. We collaborate, but for the most part, it's me and I am very particular about how the songs I spend so much energy on are presented. We are a metal band, but I prefer the lo-fi sound, things that sound kinda off and not polished and sorta gritty. That appeals to me more. I'm not a "metal" guy in that sense, but I do want them to have a say, but I want them to see where I'm coming from too, and the members who want to do home recordings see it that way, but the other two want that polished "pro" sound (which, pro quality today sounds like bees in a can with plastic drums to me) Like I said, I think it was a hearing with their eyes thing, because I got a new DAW and all off a sudden it sounded 10x better despite me doing nothing to anything.
He doesn't see playing shows out of town and building a fan base as being as important as making recordings that we aren't likely to see a real profit on. Again, his main deal is profit, which isn't a bad thing to want, but it is unlikely at this phase. Aside from all the compliments we get wherever we play, I don't want him to think that someone is going to "save us" from the local scene because of how awesome we are :P I think he sees that we very well have the potential to progress and really do something with this, and he wants to, but....I don't even know


First off I let me say that I completely understand not wanting that polished sound. But there is a difference between unpolished and poorly recorded. You obviously still want your instruments to sound good, and be recreated in digital format as well as possible. That polished sound, is mostly done in the mixing stage. I know you are a metal band but the example I always think of is "The Black Keys" They have a very lo-fi sound and a very raw sound, yet it is a clear sound, and believe me, was done in a studio using expensive equipment. I get why you want to record at home, I really do. I love recording at home, but all I'm saying is, if you can afford it, go record in a studio. Then you can mix it, and make it sound as compressed or as raw as you want. Also, if you don't mind me asking, what is your experience with recording? Because using a different DAW should have very little if any at all, effect on the sound.

Your guy who doesn't pay is kind of right about getting something recorded first. I don't know if you have anything yet, but you can't grow if you don't have anything people can listen to. Playing out a lot is great, but people remember you, can will tell others about you if they have something to listen to after the show. Profit can happen at any phase, it all depends on fans. And you get more fans by getting people to listen to your songs and then wanting to go to your shows.
TNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2012, 12:34 AM   #10
scguitarking927
Time for a revolution
 
scguitarking927's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SC
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonny bb
I write 99% of the music (me and the drummer work out most of the final kinks), I book the shows, have the practice space, now I've started with lyrics and recordings. We collaborate, but for the most part, it's me and I am very particular about how the songs I spend so much energy on are presented. We are a metal band, but I prefer the lo-fi sound, things that sound kinda off and not polished and sorta gritty. That appeals to me more. I'm not a "metal" guy in that sense, but I do want them to have a say, but I want them to see where I'm coming from too, and the members who want to do home recordings see it that way, but the other two want that polished "pro" sound (which, pro quality today sounds like bees in a can with plastic drums to me) Like I said, I think it was a hearing with their eyes thing, because I got a new DAW and all off a sudden it sounded 10x better despite me doing nothing to anything.
He doesn't see playing shows out of town and building a fan base as being as important as making recordings that we aren't likely to see a real profit on. Again, his main deal is profit, which isn't a bad thing to want, but it is unlikely at this phase. Aside from all the compliments we get wherever we play, I don't want him to think that someone is going to "save us" from the local scene because of how awesome we are :P I think he sees that we very well have the potential to progress and really do something with this, and he wants to, but....I don't even know



A lot of places will give you a free mix and usually do a free remix depending on the place, like I said, shop around. I record some people myself, I have a decent setup and I charge practically nothing, but again I've been doing it for a while and have gotten accustomed to my workstation and my listening environment to be able to get quality results.


If you have a particular sound youre after, i'm sure you have heard it somewhere if that is in fact what you're after. Take the song, band, what ever it is as a sample of what you want. Any engineer worth a damn will be able to tell you how to some what replicate it (not in detail, because that would require identical equipment, mixing engineer, etc.). But they should have the know how to take a mix in a certain direction. If it's a certain lo-fi sound, the click of the bass drum, etc. If someone has a sample of what they want it prevents the mixing engineer from just stabbing in the dark trying to find something you think you want.

You're paying them, get behind the chair with them and listen, it's your money, they're working towards your standards.
__________________
Owner of United Studios

Music Blog
Follow me on Twitter
scguitarking927 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2012, 04:35 AM   #11
sonny bb
UG's New-ish Guy
 
sonny bb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: texas
What I meant by changing the DAW was that of course it didn't sound any better, but the way it looked made him react a certain way. He even said it. It's not that I cant get a good mix that is clear and doesn't sound like poopy pants, they want the studio experience, which imo is so what Some may disagree, but like with an hdtv, having it sound like a super well produced cd quality recording is not going to make a song better. We can all agree with that right? It may make it more listenable, but the song itself has to be good on its own. For the sake of argument, I'd rather the quality be horrible and the song be good. I've told them that if they really want to, I'll go along with it. We've gotten samples from studios in our area and we don't really like them. Either that or the price is WAAAY out of range. Recently, they asked when I'm going to record them again, so I don't know what's up with them on that front anymore...communication breakdown.
__________________
:
"Stop shooting me!!!GAHHHH!!!"
<(0_0<)(>0_0)> FU
^(0_0)^^(0_0)^ Sion
(>0_0)><(0_0<) HA!!!
<(*~*)>
sonny bb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2012, 01:40 PM   #12
TNA
Registered User
 
TNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Completely agree with scguitarking927. It's your song, you have final say over what an engineer does to it. You are paying them, so tell them what you want. Go to a smaller studio if you don't think a large one is worth it. Look on craigslist. I see ads for small studios all over for around $20 an hour.

Aren't all of your songs already written? Then why would recording them change that? You also have to think about why you are recording? Are you planning on giving this demo to just friends? Or trying to sell it at your shows? Or giving it to promoters to try and get more gigs? Ask any recording engineer and they'll agree, they hate that super compressed, super polished sound. But they also know that that sound is the standard now. People in general prefer that sound, mostly because they are used to it. What I'm saying is, think about your audience, you may want that super lo-fi sound, but your audience most likely does not. Same with your HDtv analogy, most people would prefer the HD.

Why don't you just prove to them that you can handle recording on your own. If you know what you are doing and everyone is prepared you should be able to get an entire song done in one day. Then you can mix it and have them listen to it. If they like it, then hopefully that can convince them to save some money and do it at home. However, here is another problem with you doing the recording. It's the fact that you are the one doing the mixing. You obviously have a sound in mind that you want. Just because you did the recording doesn't mean you get final say in the sound. It's an entire band effort, and any good engineer should be sending several mixes to the band and using their feedback to make changes, whether the engineer agrees or not. It's difficult being your own engineer because sometimes your band mates will want something to sound a different way and you couldn't disagree more, and therein lies the dilemma.
TNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2012, 10:39 PM   #13
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
About the recording....

You ALWAYS have to ask yourself, "What is the purpose of this recording?" If it is simply to show possible club owners what you sound like, then a cheap project studio demo may well be all you need. If the purpose of it is to sell to fans to help earn income for your band, then you should either go with a more expensive project studio that will still give you good bang for the buck, or perhaps even consider a pro studio if you can afford it.

Merchandise - if you can at least break even on it, then do it. It makes your band look more professional at all levels, as long as it is of decent quality. However, if you are only going to lose money on it, then you really have to second-guess why you'd bother.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2012, 05:47 AM   #14
sonny bb
UG's New-ish Guy
 
sonny bb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: texas
The main purpose would be for both profit and promotion, so it sounding like butt sauce would not be good. When i recorded us before, there were kinks, but we all agreed that we liked it overall. Now that I have better gear and more experience and I've learned better techniques, I feel like I can do a decent job that would sound clear and represent the songs well. The main thing really is mics. We somehow lost a drum mic in transit one day, so were short one drum mic, which isn't a big deal, we get another one. We've got a decent mixer and interface. So I don't see why we shouldn't give it a shot.
Like I said, it seems like the two members have budged on giving it another shot.

With merch, I actually do have a way of getting shirts made very cheaply. Step dad makes shirts. We had the idea of wristbands too as we can get them made pretty cheap (funny story, the member who brought them up got the pricing figures mixed up. $500 for 50 wristbands. We almost gave up on life )

As far as modern standards go, I am in no way concerned with modern standards of anything. That seems like a very dumb thing in this business, but that ideology has done me well so far so until it absolutely backfires, I'll keep with that. People can only like what is presented to them. You can't know if you like something if it isn't put out there. My favorite bands have signature production, if that makes sense. Album sounds that are distinctly their own, more or less. I hate the way modern music sounds today regardless of if I like the song. Over compressed and tinny. I want no part in that. But like you said, compromise will have to happen. I'm sure it'll work out in the end

btw. Thanks for being so patient with me. I'm sure I can be hard to talk to, even through the internet
__________________
:
"Stop shooting me!!!GAHHHH!!!"
<(0_0<)(>0_0)> FU
^(0_0)^^(0_0)^ Sion
(>0_0)><(0_0<) HA!!!
<(*~*)>

Last edited by sonny bb : 12-23-2012 at 05:48 AM.
sonny bb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2012, 05:05 PM   #15
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonny bb
The main purpose would be for both profit and promotion,


You're envisioning your band having an album for sale, and using that album as promotional material for shows and such.

Okay, so it's not really a demo, then, is it?

In that case, you need to have a recording that people will expect when they purchase it. Nobody expects to lay out money for something that sounds like a demo. They expect to pay for a professionally produced product - or something that sounds like it.

Also consider that, if your album sounds like a demo, then the clubs booking you will judge you according to that standard also.

It should also look like something that people expect from a professionally done album. Nobody wants to buy an ink-jet album cover with a burned disc written on with a Sharpie.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 11:36 AM   #16
sonny bb
UG's New-ish Guy
 
sonny bb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: texas
Not really a whole album. Three songs. We've always considered that a demo regardless of how it sounds. I say profit because our guitarist wants it that way. The rest of us aren't nearly as concerned with making a profit at this juncture. As for audio clarity and quality, I'm not super worried about my ability to get that right. I'd rather it be a total extension of the writing process I have because recording is a big part of that for me as the main songwriter. I'd rather it be something I'm wholeheartedly proud of than something that I am merely okay with. That concept seems to have been lost until very recently. As it is in a band context, compromises will have to be met and I'm not super worried about it anymore.
__________________
:
"Stop shooting me!!!GAHHHH!!!"
<(0_0<)(>0_0)> FU
^(0_0)^^(0_0)^ Sion
(>0_0)><(0_0<) HA!!!
<(*~*)>
sonny bb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 12:00 PM   #17
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
The basic rule of thumb is, if it is a demo, then don't sell it. If it is your product, then sell it.

Is it your product?

If it is, that's fine. But keep in mind that most people aren't all that keen on buying a demo.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 02:43 AM   #18
TNA
Registered User
 
TNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
It sounds like your mind is already made up. Be sure to post your recordings after you're finished. I'm interested to hear them after how set you are on home recording.
TNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:58 AM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.