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Old 12-21-2012, 11:52 AM   #1
coco-loco
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Smile Bass Amp Help!

Okay, I'm going to be honest with you all-I've been playing with a shitty combo amp for the last 3 years on bass (different amp, but similar model on guitar for 4 years!), and it's definitely time for an upgrade. I think I'm more certain in what I want in regards to the bass amps though.

Now, what I want to know, is if these are a suitable match, your opinions on it, and basically CAN I do this? I'm a noob, so I beg you not to bash me...I'd just really love to know, before I blow my money on some stuff that's basically not a good idea/not going to work.

I'm looking at getting a Fender 610 PRO Cabinet and an Ampeg SVT 3 Pro Bass Head. I don't know what the deal is with using two different types of heads and/or cabs in the same rig, so I plead you to tell me what I should know.

Many many thanks to you all, I look forward to reading your responses.

EDIT: Here are some specs and details about what I'm looking at if it helps:

http://www.fender.com/en-AU/products/610-pro-cabinet/

http://www.ampeg.com/products/pro/svt3pro/index.html

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Old 12-21-2012, 01:34 PM   #2
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It's all about ohms and watts. Your cab must exceed the power rating (watts) of your amp and must match the impedance rating (ohms).

In your case,
your amp is 450 watts at 4 ohms
your cab is 800 watts at 4 ohms

So you're good to go!
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Old 12-21-2012, 04:11 PM   #3
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That should make for a pretty cool rig.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:38 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthm_guitarist
It's all about ohms and watts. Your cab must exceed the power rating (watts) of your amp and must match the impedance rating (ohms).

In your case,
your amp is 450 watts at 4 ohms
your cab is 800 watts at 4 ohms

So you're good to go!


Thanks so much!!! I haven't posted in here before (or if I have it's probably only been one post), so I didn't know what you'd all be like. Thanks for not talking down to me or being pretentious or anything, much appreciated!

Now I know what I'm saving up for!

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Originally Posted by FatalGear41
That should make for a pretty cool rig.


Thanks!!! It's going to take a while to save up for it, but I'm pretty certain that this is what I want!!!
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:28 AM   #5
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I disagree about having less amp than Speaker.

Dirty power will melt Voice Coils just as fast as over powering them.

If he never turns his amp past say 8 he will probably be alright.

I have run a 1Kw Crown on a 500W Cab in a Concert setting. Never Blew a speaker, but the 4 Horn Loaded 12's in the PA each with a 300W capacity@ were being run by a Peavey CS400 (something like that) had to be replaced like every 2 weeks.

Look it up, a lot of Amps deliver dirty DC Voltage in their last 10-15% of power.

That is the rule I have applied since dumping the Roland 120 power Amp that I was trying to push an 800W Boogie 4x12 with. The amp constantly went into clip giving no headroom, and then autoprotect shut down.

People call me a troll on here, but go look it up.
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:32 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliide90027
I disagree about having less amp than Speaker.

Here we go again


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliide90027
I have run a 1Kw Crown on a 500W Cab in a Concert setting. Never Blew a speaker, but the 4 Horn Loaded 12's in the PA each with a 300W capacity@ were being run by a Peavey CS400 (something like that) had to be replaced like every 2 weeks.

Plenty of good explanations to this. Mismatched impedance, crappy speakers, etc. Try turning your 1kW Crown up to it's max, ignoring the speaker distortion, and see how long it lasts.

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Originally Posted by Sliide90027
Look it up, a lot of Amps deliver dirty DC Voltage in their last 10-15% of power.

That's odd, every audio amplifier I've ever come across in my life delivers AC. I have no clue why yours would be delivering bad DC power. Not to mention I wonder how it's producing sound if you're using a DC input, your speakers would only move forward.
If you're talking about clipping then you're misunderstanding the whole thing there. It's going to be annoyingly long so I will stick an explanation I've been given by various amp techs, and the few amp/cab makers I've met.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliide90027
That is the rule I have applied since dumping the Roland 120 power Amp that I was trying to push an 800W Boogie 4x12 with. The amp constantly went into clip giving no headroom, and then autoprotect shut down.

Unrelated. Your issue there was you had an amp that wasn't powerful enough to provide the output you needed

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Originally Posted by Sliide90027
People call me a troll on here,

I wonder why...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliide90027
but go look it up.

And there will be 1000000000000000000000000000000000 arguments for either side as this is a never ending debate stemming from a poor understanding of how these big things we call amplifiers actually work, especially when reaching clipping.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:00 AM   #7
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So basically I shouldn't take much of what Sliide said in?
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:11 AM   #8
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I did encourage you to look it up yourself.

I am also a Troll because I tell these noobs to get a steel 6" straight rule to check their frets if they buzz, as opposed to rushing for the truss rod and messing with the true of the neck.

Such an evil TROLL.

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Old 12-23-2012, 03:55 AM   #9
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I am partially with Sliide on this one. I run a 1500 watt amp into 2 15" PA cabs (yeah this totally goes against what most people think is right) and the cabs are rated at 150 watts each. That means I'm running 1500 watts into 300 watts worth of cabinet....does it matter? Hell no, IF you know how to take care of your equipment.

It's all about respecting your cabinet's capabilities and you don't need to be a amp tech to be able to understand this. Always listen to your cabs for distress. It's almost as if it's screaming for you to stop when it's reached it's max output (which of course is dependant on your EQ amongst other things). In my experience of playing loud and hard I've noticed that the cab will tell you (in an audible sense) when it's had enough, and this is generally way before your voice coils will melt.

You will find it easier to hear speaker distress when playing clean (no fx). When you add overdrive/distortion it will be harder to notice because the bass effects will drown out the speaker's signs of distress.

I've kinda gone a bit off topic here but it's something that everybody should take into account. It really isn't all about watts. Common sense and understanding your gear plays a big part in getting the best out of any rig.

Peace!

p.s Sliide is not a troll. Just cause he give his opinions through experience it doesn't mean that he's purposely trying to annoy you. There tends to be a lot of misguided information thrown about the internet and most of us are just trying to help others, and you can easily tell that he's just passing on wisdom, not bullshit. But hey, that's just my opinion right?

Last edited by J3G2 : 12-23-2012 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliide90027
I am also a Troll because I tell these noobs to get a steel 6" straight rule to check their frets if they buzz, as opposed to rushing for the truss rod and messing with the true of the neck.

I don't believe I was a part of that thread but whatever. Also calling beginner players 'noobs' isn't going to help your case. We probably wouldn't react the way we do to you if you didn't act like you mixed this board up with /b/

Quote:
Originally Posted by J3G2
I am partially with Sliide on this one. I run a 1500 watt amp into 2 15" PA cabs (yeah this totally goes against what most people think is right) and the cabs are rated at 150 watts each. That means I'm running 1500 watts into 300 watts worth of cabinet....does it matter? Hell no, IF you know how to take care of your equipment

The thing is he said you are likely to blow stuff up if you underpower, which isn't possible. Both will work, but you do have to be more careful with too much than you do too little. If you have less then you have to push the amp into clipping before you run that risk, whereas if you have more then you'll reach speaker distortion and maybe even break stuff before the amp even looks like clipping.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:08 AM   #11
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Arguing whether having a more powerful amp or higher rated speakers will cause equipment failure is a lot like arguing whether a front or rear-wheel-drive car is more likely to crash. Both will be fine, as long as you don't act like an idiot with them Just like you have to listen out for the sound of tyres screeching and your car flailing about like a beached whale to tell you when you've over-cooked a corner, you need to listen to the speakers in your amp to make sure they don't sound like one long fart. As long as you remember that simple rule, you shouldn't have a problem.
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by chatterbox272
I don't believe I was a part of that thread but whatever. Also calling beginner players 'noobs' isn't going to help your case. We probably wouldn't react the way we do to you if you didn't act like you mixed this board up with /b/


The thing is he said you are likely to blow stuff up if you underpower, which isn't possible. Both will work, but you do have to be more careful with too much than you do too little. If you have less then you have to push the amp into clipping before you run that risk, whereas if you have more then you'll reach speaker distortion and maybe even break stuff before the amp even looks like clipping.


Maybe you should be more polite in your posts.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterbox272
The thing is he said you are likely to blow stuff up if you underpower, which isn't possible. Both will work, but you do have to be more careful with too much than you do too little. If you have less then you have to push the amp into clipping before you run that risk, whereas if you have more then you'll reach speaker distortion and maybe even break stuff before the amp even looks like clipping.

Clipping signals (square waves) can be harmful to speakers.

Some 20 plus years ago and due to the speakers available you were advised to have twice the speaker handling power than the amps rated output power this was totally due to the unrealistic rating of the speakers.

Modern speakers are far more advanced than in the past, I have used for a considerable time and many live gigs a 1200 power amp into a 400 watt 15" speaker with no ill effects.

The advice given today is that it is quite safe to use a higher rated amplifier than the speakers as a speaker works far better when receiving a good quality clean signal than an clipping signal.

Further more running a lower wattage amp into a high wattage speaker system can overwork the amp and make it overheat with the result of a likely amp failure.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:02 PM   #14
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Okay....so simply put, this will work, but I'll just have to be wary of the speakers going to shit?
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:26 AM   #15
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Yes Coco loco.

Don't crack it past 8, especially if you run distortion, as you may not realize a bad situation and damage speakers.

Had a chat with a friend who used to work at Shoco here in the DFW area regarding the substance of this thread and the treatment of myself here.

Before I could explain everything he was already telling me I was absolutely correct. That is how the sound companies operate their systems.

So be careful which ever path you choose. I play a 425w 2x12 combo, and have been fired for being louder than the 3 Marshall Stacks I have been up against. so if you are up against 2 Stacks at any one time, I would believe you will be ok. No more though, i would not want you to be tempted to push into dirty power.
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Old 12-24-2012, 03:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Swift
Clipping signals (square waves) can be harmful to speakers

Now that just doesn't make sense, all a square wave makes a speaker do is move forward at a constant rate, then move back at the same rate. I really wish I could find the argument from talkbass where there's a tech at a speaker company (I can't remember which) explaining how it's all a load of bull. The only problem with square waves is that it means your amp provides peak output all the time, so you risk overpowering without realising you are. Which, oddly enough is the part you bolded out in the quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Swift
Modern speakers are far more advanced than in the past, I have used for a considerable time and many live gigs a 1200 power amp into a 400 watt 15" speaker with no ill effects.

But did you run the power amp at it's full 1200W? like did you turn it up to 10? I bet you didn't, because you heard the speaker distorting. Now what happens if in transport a knob gets twisted, or someone messes with the amp as a joke and sets it up to 9 and you don't know. You play, and blow a speaker there and then. If you have one that's underpowering and the same happens, you play, hear clipping, and turn down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Swift
The advice given today is that it is quite safe to use a higher rated amplifier than the speakers as a speaker works far better when receiving a good quality clean signal than an clipping signal.

Speakers move in accordance to the AC signal provided. Are you telling me that speakers prefer to move in a sine wave pattern and others may damage it? in that case I recommend never putting an instrument in the amp, because all the harmonics and stuff are gonna give you a rather irregularly shaped wave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Swift
Further more running a lower wattage amp into a high wattage speaker system can overwork the amp and make it overheat with the result of a likely amp failure.

Electrically, that does not work. The amp has a peak power output, it will break if you try to run up there for extended periods of time.
So what we have here is this information:
Pushing an amp into clipping
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:12 AM   #17
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Great! Thank you all for that! And also Sliide, thanks. I'm sorry for being terse with you before..just I got the impression that you weren't a reputable source or something, but I've disregarded that now, so cheers, and sorry.

It's a plan for the future! Hopefully I'll end up with this cab and head, but who knows? Regardless, this has been really informative and It'll be great to refer to if I need any queries about it in the future!

Cheers all

And Merry Christmas
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:30 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterbox272
Now that just doesn't make sense, all a square wave makes a speaker do is move forward at a constant rate, then move back at the same rate. I really wish I could find the argument from talkbass where there's a tech at a speaker company (I can't remember which) explaining how it's all a load of bull. The only problem with square waves is that it means your amp provides peak output all the time, so you risk overpowering without realising you are. Which, oddly enough is the part you bolded out in the quote


But did you run the power amp at it's full 1200W? like did you turn it up to 10? I bet you didn't, because you heard the speaker distorting. Now what happens if in transport a knob gets twisted, or someone messes with the amp as a joke and sets it up to 9 and you don't know. You play, and blow a speaker there and then. If you have one that's underpowering and the same happens, you play, hear clipping, and turn down.


Speakers move in accordance to the AC signal provided. Are you telling me that speakers prefer to move in a sine wave pattern and others may damage it? in that case I recommend never putting an instrument in the amp, because all the harmonics and stuff are gonna give you a rather irregularly shaped wave.


Electrically, that does not work. The amp has a peak power output, it will break if you try to run up there for extended periods of time.
So what we have here is this information:
Pushing an amp into clipping


There is so much twaddle in your response I can't be bothered to go into details.
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Old 12-25-2012, 08:00 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterbox272
But did you run the power amp at it's full 1200W? like did you turn it up to 10? I bet you didn't, because you heard the speaker distorting. You play, and blow a speaker there and then. If you have one that's underpowering and the same happens, you play, hear clipping, and turn down.


What a stupid post

Due to the excess of power I didn't need to therefore my speakers performed well due to receiving a good quality signal with no clipping from the output stage and no overdrive from the preamp stage

Quote:
Now what happens if in transport a knob gets twisted, or someone messes with the amp as a joke and sets it up to 9 and you don't know.


Another stupid reply, I always turn down before switching off and make sure all are down to zero before turning on on as I do with all the bands amplification that I control.
This is something that comes with 50 years gigging experience.
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