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Old 12-30-2012, 01:43 PM   #61
LP1951
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Originally Posted by JustRooster
When only 1,000 people want to buy your guitars, it's easy to make only 100, overprice them, and make them seems like it's impossible to keep in stock. Gibson's running a good business plan by making Kramers seem more in demand than they are.


So let me see if I understand your guess on the twisted logic of Gibson's crazy "marketing" plan for Kramer Guitars?

You think Gibson bought Kramer just so that they could pretend that they could sell Kramers? Then they spent alot of money building an online company, Musicyo, and on advertising Kramers, so that they could pretend to be selling Kramers?

But they only made 100 Kramers so that they would quickly sell out so that they could post "out of stock" for the best sellers like the 422 & 424?

What about all those other models that didn't sell out? Why didn't they just post an "out of stock" message for all the Kramer models?

Ok, let's assume that your guess about their crazy "marketing" plan is true. Then how do you account for the fact that, once the 422s & 424s were offered online by several retailers, they quickly sold out? Do you think that major retailers like Musicians Friend, Zsounds, Sam Ash etc etc would pretend to be selling Kramers so that Gibson could successfully implement their crazy "marketing" plan to pretend to be selling Kramers?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guit...electric-guitar
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:04 PM   #62
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Just chiming in here: I bought one of these http://www.kramerguitars.com/Produc...er-Vintage.aspx at Themusiczoo with no wait time, no problem, and I prefer it over my Les Paul by miles. The new Kramers kick ass.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:14 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by LP1951
Ok, let's assume that your guess about their crazy "marketing" plan is true.

Are you really saying that creating a shortage of something to increase prices is "crazy"? I'm not saying that Rooster is correct, but your assumption that a company would never do something like that is pretty out there.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:21 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Wisthekiller
Just chiming in here: I bought one of these http://www.kramerguitars.com/Produc...er-Vintage.aspx at Themusiczoo with no wait time, no problem, and I prefer it over my Les Paul by miles. The new Kramers kick ass.


I don't know about the current Gibson/Kramers simply because I have never seen a new one in any music stores, but the Gibson/Kramers that I bought in 2001 are fantastic. In fact, if I could only have one electric it would probably be my FR422 Evo.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:50 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by LP1951
So let me see if I understand your guess on the twisted logic of Gibson's crazy "marketing" plan for Kramer Guitars?

You think Gibson bought Kramer just so that they could pretend that they could sell Kramers? Then they spent alot of money building an online company, Musicyo, and on advertising Kramers, so that they could pretend to be selling Kramers?

But they only made 100 Kramers so that they would quickly sell out so that they could post "out of stock" for the best sellers like the 422 & 424?

What about all those other models that didn't sell out? Why didn't they just post an "out of stock" message for all the Kramer models?

Ok, let's assume that your guess about their crazy "marketing" plan is true. Then how do you account for the fact that, once the 422s & 424s were offered online by several retailers, they quickly sold out? Do you think that major retailers like Musicians Friend, Zsounds, Sam Ash etc etc would pretend to be selling Kramers so that Gibson could successfully implement their crazy "marketing" plan to pretend to be selling Kramers?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guit...electric-guitar



Say all you want, dude. I'm not complaining about why things aren't the way I want, I'm trying to offer an explanation as to why they are the way they are. I'm not a Kramer player, so I don't really have any investment in their availability either way.

Guitars that sell will be sold. That's business. I didn't even know what a John Petrucci signature was 2 years ago, now both shops in Stevens Point, my old small town, have one each. They normally carry MIM Fenders and Epiphones.

Neither of those locations ever catered to metal guitars, now both carry Ibanez and ESP. Those guitars sell, so those shops started carrying them, even though they were local. Not even the Milwaukee or Madison GC's carry Kramer.




Don't misunderstand my argument. I'm not saying Kramers are bad guitars. I'm saying that they have nearly no market, hence low representation. Supply/Demand.
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Last edited by JustRooster : 12-30-2012 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:56 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRooster

Don't misunderstand my argument. I'm not saying Kramers are bad guitars. I'm saying that they have nearly no market, hence low representation. Supply/Demand.


I agree that Gibson/Kramer has a low market presence, but I don't believe that Gibson intended to have low market presence. Nor do I believe that Gibson intentionally limited the supply of Kramers. Gibson would increase the supply in a heartbeat if dealers would stock their guitars.

Ibanez currently has a much more attractive lineup of models. I just don't like their necks.

In the 2000s, Gibson had a great lineup of Kramers, but they dropped the ball in 2009 and discontinued their best models.
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:50 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRooster
The chief reason no one carries Kramer is that no one buys them. Not that no one can buy them because they're not in stores, no stores carry them because no one bought them. It's simple business. Why stock things nobody wants?

You can't sell something if you don't stock it in the first place.
It's all about brand recognition. If people don't know the brand they are less likely to buy it. This is where Gibson has dropped the ball in promoting Kramer.
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:59 PM   #68
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You can't sell something if you don't stock it in the first place.


While I agree with that, retail websites and other JIT inventory practices have changed the definition of "in stock".
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:19 PM   #69
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I really don't think they would sell a ton more if they were instock, but I agree you can't sell something if people have no place to buy it.

Even as good as the kramers were back in the day they were not extremely popular guitars.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:21 PM   #70
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I'll just post my last post in this thread and main point. If people wanted to buy Kramers, they would. If there was a demand for Kramers, local shops would supply it. That's business 101. That's as simple and grassroots as it can get.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:21 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyalcatraz
While I agree with that, retail websites and other JIT inventory practices have changed the definition of "in stock".

Good point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbgnarly
I really don't think they would sell a ton more if they were instock, but I agree you can't sell something if people have no place to buy it.

Even as good as the kramers were back in the day they were not extremely popular guitars.

Yes they were. Kramers were huge in the 80's.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:26 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Robbgnarly
I really don't think they would sell a ton more if they were instock, but I agree you can't sell something if people have no place to buy it.

Even as good as the kramers were back in the day they were not extremely popular guitars.


In 1985 & 1986, Kramers were the best selling guitars in the World, more sold than Fenders or Gibsons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramer_Guitars
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Last edited by LP1951 : 12-30-2012 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:34 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRooster
I'll just post my last post in this thread and main point. If people wanted to buy Kramers, they would. If there was a demand for Kramers, local shops would supply it. That's business 101. That's as simple and grassroots as it can get.



Pretty sure we can close the thread because there isn't much more to say than this.

The brand has been revived, by the way.

But Rooster hit the nail on the head.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:01 AM   #74
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I don't see how this is a legitimate question seeing as the brand is still selling.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:09 AM   #75
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I don't see how this is a legitimate question seeing as the brand is still selling.


It wasn't one.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:11 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Alucard817
You can't sell something if you don't stock it in the first place.
It's all about brand recognition. If people don't know the brand they are less likely to buy it. This is where Gibson has dropped the ball in promoting Kramer.


Exactly. The Kramer brand has not been prominent in music stores since the 80s so it is only familiar to people who were in the market for guitars back then or people like me who just happened upon Musicyo.com back in the 2000s while looking for a FR guitar and took a chance on Gibson Kramers.

Compare that to the marketing of the Ibanez brand.

If you walked into a music store looking for a FR guitar today for the first time today without any knowledge of the history of Kramer in the 80s or word of mouth knowledge of the quality of the 2000s Kramers, you most likely would never even consider buying a Kramer because you would not see them in the store and there is no in-store advertising of the brand as there is for Ibanez at Guitar Centers everywhere.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:58 AM   #77
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Gibson/Kramer sales are only a fraction of the Kramer sales volume of the 80s. In 1985 & 1986, Kramers were the best selling guitars in the World, more sold than Fenders or Gibsons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramer_Guitars

Technically, Gibson has revived Kramer, but it is not much of a revival.
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:31 AM   #78
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"In 1985 & 1986, Kramers were the best selling guitars in the World, more sold than Fenders or Gibsons."

I'm sort of skeptical about that. Anyone have another source of that? All I could find was the wikipedia page where it says "When the sales figures came in, Kramer was the best-selling guitar brand of 1985." And I could not find a reference to it in the sources cited, though I did look fairly quickly. I didn't check the Kramer guitar forum that is cited either.
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Old 12-31-2012, 07:14 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-Mo
"In 1985 & 1986, Kramers were the best selling guitars in the World, more sold than Fenders or Gibsons."

I'm sort of skeptical about that. Anyone have another source of that? All I could find was the wikipedia page where it says "When the sales figures came in, Kramer was the best-selling guitar brand of 1985." And I could not find a reference to it in the sources cited, though I did look fairly quickly. I didn't check the Kramer guitar forum that is cited either.

scroll down to number 9
http://www.onlybestguitar.com/2009/...me-information/
http://www.musicminder.com/scripts/...r.asp?ID=010432

Theres two I could find.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:33 AM   #80
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Thanks for those very interesting and informative articles. It is interesting to note that Gibson was able to quickly revive its brand but have been unable to do the same for Kramer. It is also interesting to note that Gibson hit its bottom in sales in 1986 when Kramer was the World's best selling guitar brand.
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