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Old 12-30-2012, 02:39 PM   #41
willT08
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Yes, I am. I'm asking why, while not condoning his behavior, you should actively spend time being bilious and full of venom over Saddam Hussein. I am asking that.

While I wouldn't use the words bilious or venomous, it should be a natural reaction to a man that tried to wipe out a race of your brothers and sisters showing your unity with them against their persecutor.


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Whether it's good for you or not is relevant because I'm making an argument that it appeals to your betterment to not spend your time, energy, thoughts, emotions, etc. on hating someone. Do other things, like (if you desire) spending time co-operating with those trying to end the rule of dictators and establish more fair and equitable forms of government.

That's got nothing to do with whether you should hate them. You're just saying you should be pro-active whilst doing it. If hate isn't a motivator then I don't know what is.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:42 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by willT08
While I wouldn't use the words bilious or venomous, it should be a natural reaction to a man that tried to wipe out a race of your brothers and sisters showing your unity with them against their persecutor.


And there's nothing wrong with this.


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That's got nothing to do with whether you should hate them. You're just saying you should be pro-active whilst doing it. If hate isn't a motivator then I don't know what is.
Oh, I don't know...maybe compassion for those who are persecuted could be a motivator. Maybe improvement of their nation and the lives of the people in that nation. Maybe making the world a better, safer place. Maybe just because you'd never want to have personally live in nation where you would fear the actions of a dictator towards you, your friends, your family, etc. Really, there's loads of motivators besides hatred.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:43 PM   #43
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:44 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
And there's nothing wrong with this.
Well then it seems like hating them is a good thing then...


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Oh, I don't know...maybe compassion for those who are persecuted could be a motivator. Maybe improvement of their nation and the lives of the people in that nation. Maybe making the world a better, safer place. Maybe just because you'd never want to have personally live in nation where you would fear the actions of a dictator towards you, your friends, your family, etc. Really, there's loads of motivators besides hatred.

Hatred's still a very effective one though.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:46 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by willT08
Well then it seems like hating them is a good thing then...

No, you don't have to hate a dictator to join your brothers and sisters in removing a brutal dictator from power. You could just be doing it because of one of the motivators such as those I listed above.



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Hatred's still a very effective one though.

Yeah, and that doesn't mean it's good in the long-term is what I'm saying.




Anyway, I think I've presented my argument fairly well. Accept it or don't. It's up to you.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:51 PM   #46
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I think I know what you mean. If he said he hated American business, people would flip shit. We're so masturbatory about things being American that you have to say you love American business so people won't abandon you. We shouldn't focus on people like Mitt Romney, we should focus on the circumstances that allow people like him to get in to shady things. If people were ok with not being AMURCA **** YEA all the time, people wouldn't feel the need to play this game.

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Old 12-30-2012, 02:52 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
No, you don't have to hate a dictator to join your brothers and sisters in removing a brutal dictator from power. You could just be doing it because of one of the motivators such as those I listed above.
Considering that the vast majority will never take an active role in an uprising for whatever reason, it seems better to show unity through hatred whilst doing nothing than doing nothing and be apathetic be about it.


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Yeah, and that doesn't mean it's good in the long-term is what I'm saying.
Anyway, I think I've presented my argument fairly well. Accept it or don't. It's up to you.

I'm not even saying it's a bad argument. It's just that it doesn't seem to conclude with "So you shouldn't hate people" it ends at "So although hate would work, here are some alternatives"
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:56 PM   #48
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This is a hard thing to argue, we don't all experience hatred in the same way. I think what Sam's trying to say is that fixating on that hate while doing nothing to prevent such actions being committed is bad (although, sometimes your hands are tied). But having no dislike or distaste for the person committing such actions is also, IMO, equally bad.

Your emotions do have a real world effect in that they affect your actions. So (and if we're being black/white about it) hating someone for a morally corrupt action (an action that would negatively affect others and cannot be reversed) would help eradicate the problem more than loving someone. You can't like a rapist and try to put him in jail in the same way that you can't hate a dictator and do your best to keep him in control (extenuating circumstances not applying). Having negative feelings towards something assures that you will treat it negatively, and having positive feelings towards something assures that it gets your best treatment.

Putting someone in jail isn't a positive action. You're stripping away everything from them except their right to live. It's a step away from murder (an irreversible, morally corrupt act - I hope we all agree on that) but it's an adequate punishment for such an act.

So really, putting it in black and white doesn't work. You can be consumed by hatred (if you gaze long into the abyss and what not), you can hate someone just enough, you can like someone, you can love someone and everything in between + weird combinations for psycho ex-girlfriends (WARNING: This part is a joke).

Best I can make of it for now. You hate someone because you hate their actions. Implying that you can either a) hate their actions but love the "playa" or b) hate the "playa" but love their actions, is very short-sighted.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:59 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ali.guitarkid7
Best I can make of it for now. You hate someone because you hate their actions. Implying that you can either a) hate their actions but love the "playa" or b) hate the "playa" but love their actions, is very short-sighted.

Who does that? You're judgement of people should be on how they act.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:01 PM   #50
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As much as it surprises me, I fully agree with almost everything crazysam has said in this thread.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:10 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by willT08
Who does that? You're judgement of people should be on how they act.

I was waxing philosophical on the term "Don't hate the player, hate the game", which is probably where I went wrong.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:13 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ali.guitarkid7
I was waxing philosophical on the term "Don't hate the player, hate the game", which is probably where I went wrong.

It's fair enough. I probably went wrong when I expected people to get on board with me when I've put myself forward as "Will T, the advocate of global hatred"
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:14 PM   #53
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This thread is dumb.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" = "It's okay to be a terrible person and/or do shitty things because it makes my life easier".

Mitt Romney is an asshole, gang bangers are assholes, you're all assholes, and I'm an asshole.

Also, you're entitled to feel hatred, just not necessarily to act on it, so stop feeling guilty about it.

The alliteration in your username is very pleasing to say.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:15 PM   #54
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Also, you're entitled to feel hatred, just not necessarily to act on it, so stop feeling guilty about it.

I don't think anyone's feeling guilty about being hateful of something. We are what we are.

However, it does fit into my perception argument I bring up (mostly during feminism discussion) in that the more you put into a cause the more you'll begin to lose sight and just hate those who disagree.

I forgot where I was going with this. Carry on.

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It's fair enough. I probably went wrong when I expected people to get on board with me when I've put myself forward as "Will T, the advocate of global hatred"

True.

I feel like it's kind of a moot argument. Eventually, we have little to no control over how we react (emotionally) to an action. You can only try to educate yourself on whatever subject in order to accept that your reactions are deserved -- whatever they may be.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:40 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by willT08
Considering that the vast majority will never take an active role in an uprising for whatever reason, it seems better to show unity through hatred whilst doing nothing than doing nothing and be apathetic be about it.

Well, unfortunately, yes.

Human nature seems to favor inaction over action. Hatred seems to sometimes inspire action, I admit. I just think that something else, like desire to improve one's state and the state of humanity is a better alternative to inspire action.


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I'm not even saying it's a bad argument. It's just that it doesn't seem to conclude with "So you shouldn't hate people" it ends at "So although hate would work, here are some alternatives"
Basically. I'm not arrogant enough to say that my argument is the "be all, end all", so to speak. I feel that saying so would make me a prick. So...I guess you could say it's a weak ending, but it's also true. I mean, I'm sure if I spend years and years researching, I'd come up with a very strong argument. But I don't have years and years.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:41 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by BladeSlinger
I think I know what you mean. If he said he hated American business, people would flip shit. We're so masturbatory about things being American that you have to say you love American business so people won't abandon you. We shouldn't focus on people like Mitt Romney, we should focus on the circumstances that allow people like him to get in to shady things. If people were ok with not being AMURCA **** YEA all the time, people wouldn't feel the need to play this game.

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Very good summary. As I said before:


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Originally Posted by JustRooster
I think that the phrase has more to do with a role than the actual identifiable person. Most rich people will avoid claiming income to save money from taxation. Just about anyone would do it, even those of high morals.

Let's remember where the phrase came from; low income neighborhoods where the chief way to gain money was drug trafficking and theft. Most of the time those involved only were because it was the only way for them to feed themselves or their families, hence joining gangs. The idea was that you can't hate a guy for doing what it is he has to do, rather, you should hate the situation that force them there. The focus should be on fixing the situation, not blaming those involved.




Also, this thread is not about dictators.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:07 PM   #57
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Dis all be 'bout da game known as life baby. And dat game, dat game I' play'n and I' win'n.

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Old 12-30-2012, 04:17 PM   #58
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To an extent, I guess. Like, it's silly to endlessly condemn companies and stuff for not paying "enough" tax, as for the most part, their behaviour is legal. We should push for taxes to be raised, or loopholes closed, or whatever the issue is, so that companies would have no choice.

On the other hand, it's probably not entirely a good idea to remove all personal responsibility. Even if everyone would do the same, I still think you can call an action wrong if it is wrong.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:23 PM   #59
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No one who adheres to this mentality is going to acknowledge that. It's a convenient way to absolve anyone of wrongdoing, including themselves.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:30 PM   #60
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No one who adheres to this mentality is going to acknowledge that. It's a convenient way to absolve anyone of wrongdoing, including themselves.

Was just about to say this.
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