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Old 01-01-2013, 10:52 PM   #21
food1010
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Originally Posted by Dix Stirbt
I'm sorry to ask all these questions, but I'm just curious. If modes are in your opinion "out-dated," then what should I use instead to give my sound a little more flavor? I don't want to settle with just major/minor scales because they can get boring and repetitive if that's all I use.
Accidentals. Rhythm. Phrasing. Silence, maybe?

If major/minor scales are getting boring, you really just don't have enough experience with them. You have plenty of note choice options just taking the major scale and adding accidentals as you please.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:15 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by food1010
Accidentals. Rhythm. Phrasing. Silence, maybe?

If major/minor scales are getting boring, you really just don't have enough experience with them. You have plenty of note choice options just taking the major scale and adding accidentals as you please.


By doing that, you pretty much have all the notes as an option
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:42 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by macashmack
By doing that, you pretty much have all the notes as an option
Precisely.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:52 AM   #24
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listen, pathetic amateur, i'm really looking forward to explaining modes to you

and my explanation is this

don't

just don't

i can't even believe

where's the pillsbury doughboy award
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:35 AM   #25
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The closest thing to modality normally found in modern music is the "flamenco mode" also associated or called, "Andalusion Cadence".

A classic example is Bob Dylan's "One more Cup of Coffee". The basic chord Progression is Am, G, F, E, and the scale is a "Phrygian major". You can try to argue this song into the key of Am all night, but in the end, you'll realize the the E major is functioning as the "I" or tonic, and hence is the true resolution.

With that said, true early modal music contains "tetrachords", while the "Andalusian Candence" is a fully chord harmonized scale. So, it can't be truly modal either.

"Modes" start the best, most long winded arguments here at UG, and while it's a cool for a while, modes are sometimes either alluded to, generated in a faux manner, or only appear as "snippets" in modern music, when the reality is, you're still dealing with keyed music.

The Beatles "Norwegian Wood" is the perfect example of an almost purely modal piece due to the drones that exist in the verse, and the technical absence of anything that could be considered a true chord change. The minor or "Dorian" part is a little more ambiguous, as there is a more changing chord progression in that section.
(Dm, Em, Dm, G, A) A is the V chord of D major, so that does offer a direct major key type resolution to the Mixolydian (verse) section.

( A major is also the "V" chord as used in the Dm harmonic minor scale. Just thought I'd toss that in there for yuks).

Van Morrison and the Jefferson Airplane loosely worked some tentatively modal devices into their songs. Morrison's "Moondance, and the Airplane's "White Rabbit" and "Martha", come to mind. That only extends or aggravates to argument, as one has to wonder, "does getting very stoned and allowing some pedal notes to drone, really constitute a dlligent attempt to resurrect the archaic modal discipline....

Perhaps these 2 Wiki pages will give you food for thought: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_cadence And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_mode

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Old 01-02-2013, 07:06 AM   #26
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It's actually pretty easy to argue that the chord progression Am G F E is in a key. The E major is derived from the harmonic minor, it features the strongest cadence possible. Key is A minor.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by AlanHB
It's actually pretty easy to argue that the chord progression Am G F E is in a key. The E major is derived from the harmonic minor, it features the strongest cadence possible. Key is A minor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
The closest thing to modality normally found in modern music is the "flamenco mode" also associated or called, "Andalusion Cadence".


As you can plainly see, I said it was close to modal, not truly modal. If it was actually Phrygian, the tonic would be Em.

Yes, there are V7 chord resolutions and they are very powerful. But, the ones I'm thinking of, sound more,"out of key" than, "in key".

B7 in the open position, (when we're talking about the key of Em), is one of those resolutions. But here, that particular chord voicing almost falls into the category of "idiomatic expression for guitar. It gets pounded away on in "The House of the Rising Sun", and "Diamonds and Rust".

In the Andalusian Cadence, none of the chords ever truly function as they would in Am. The outro to "Stairway to Heaven", while it uses the same chord progression, clearly resolves to Am. (of course without the E major).

So, I believe the links I gave you mention that for every "Andalusion mode", there is a minor key equivalent.

And since we're on the topic of dispelling myths, I think what everybody is calling "Dorian" in "Norwegian Wood", is pretty much D harmonic minor as well. (The A major chord is that self same "V" chord, in either D major or D minor).

Happy now? You have me on board with the whole, "every modern song is in a key dogma"?.

Except when such and such an "expert" says it isn't. Unfortunately, those opinions vary from day to day, and expert to expert, and even my non-expert self...

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Old 01-02-2013, 01:52 PM   #28
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The 'Andalusian mode' (lol) is a set of chords descending a tetrachord. It's not in a mode, it's in a key.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:10 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
The 'Andalusian mode' (lol) is a set of chords descending a tetrachord. It's not in a mode, it's in a key.
And I agree. And I also never said it was purely modal. So why are you driving this point home? Wait, I know the answer, you're trying to make me shout, "Uncle A minor"...


But, the descending "tetrachord", gives the "impression of modality", and you never have the reassurance of a true resolution to the equivalent minor key tonic.

In the case of "One More Cup of Coffee", there's also a bunch of noodling around from F major to E major, a time tested Flamenco device. Which I'm guessing you're going to call, "VI > V", and I of course, am still stinking to my "I> II" story.

Spanish music tends to sound a bit eccentric at times. They even put reed banks on their pipe organs. Go figure.

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Old 01-02-2013, 03:05 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by AlanHB
It's actually pretty easy to argue that the chord progression Am G F E is in a key. The E major is derived from the harmonic minor, it features the strongest cadence possible. Key is A minor.
Yeah i bVII VI V is one of the most common minor progressions. It would be pretty difficult to resolve that anywhere else.

Hear how the E resolves up to the Am every time in the verse? I guess the point you were trying to make has to do more with the chorus, but considering the whole verse is undeniably tonal, it's hard to call the chorus modal. Sure, F to E is a very common example of Phrygian Dominant, but the context of the song doesn't let it settle into the Phrygian Dominant modality. The function of the chorus is mostly just to build tension around that unresolved V, and then release it when Dylan says "to the valley below." The chorus is much shorter than the verse and the instrumental breaks all use the verse progression. The tonal resolution is MUCH more firmly established. Hell, the song even ends on Am.

Sure it has a lot of flamenco tendencies, but that doesn't mean it's in phrygian dominant.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:46 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
And since we're on the topic of dispelling myths, I think what everybody is calling "Dorian" in "Norwegian Wood", is pretty much D harmonic minor as well. (The A major chord is that self same "V" chord, in either D major or D minor).

I was wondering if anyone was going to pull that up.

It's still Dorian as far as i'm concerned. The presence of the C# is a tool to modulate back to the D Major for setting up the Mixolydian verses and not really effective in changing the dorian quality of the chorus. And it doesn't really change the fact that the verse is mixolydian.

Also on a side note I don't play it the same as you but either way works.
You noted the chorus as i ii i IV V. I play it as i IV i IV V.
I have also seen it notated as i IV i iim7 V (Dm G Dm Em7 A) Though it was transcribed up a whole step as being in E as opposed to D.

What it does show is that modal ideas are not mutually exclusive from tonal ideas and the two can coexist peacefully.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:34 AM   #32
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Also on a side note I don't play it the same as you but either way works.You noted the chorus as i ii i IV V. I play it as i IV i IV V.
I have also seen it notated as i IV i iim7 V (Dm G Dm Em7 A) Though it was transcribed up a whole step as being in E as opposed to D.
No, actually we play it identically. I tend to go off half cocked writing out musical notations. mdc, AeolianWolf, or Alan usually give me a big "WTF?", and that helps me to collect my thoughts, and correct the error of my ways.

So yeah, Dm, G, Dm, Em, A . (I do skip the Em7 & play Em, you don't expect me to learn more than 6 chords, do you)?

A teacher with an extraordinary ear showed me the song when I first came, transcribed the vocal harmonies and all.

A D open chord shape is pretty much the only way you can play the melody in the verses to the song, while maintaining the drone, so I'm going to go not very far out an a very sturdy limb, and suggest that the sitar was tuned to E major, and/or somebody sneaked a capo into the studio. Hence the song being notated in E. It most likely was in "E", (or rather B mixo ).

Two songs I like to reference as a comparison between a modal "feel" and a minor key are "One More Cup of Coffee" and "Paint it Black". While there's a lot of minor 2nd >intervals< happening in Paint it Black, they're based on the harmonic minor natural 7th, not the Phrygian 2nd. Dm, A7, Dm, A7 in the verses, and the chorus ends with the V7 > i. You really can't confuse that with the Andalusian Cadence's (effective) II, I. Yet, as I always like to mention, my father always used to scream at me, "turn that shit off, it sounds like a Jewish chant". They of course, use the "Freggish" scale. It's that darn minor 2nd. No matter where you put it, if you hammer on it long enough, you can't help but get an exotic feel.

Again with this song, as with Norwegian Wood written in E, I always see it notated as being in F minor. And out comes the trusty capo. So, play the melody on the top 2 strings, cross pick the bass notes, and sing it an octave down. Works for me.
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What it does show is that modal ideas are not mutually exclusive from tonal ideas and the two can coexist peacefully.
Amen to that.

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Old 01-03-2013, 05:44 AM   #33
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^^^ Yeah modes are tonal, perhaps there's some confusion with terms occurring here.

Otherwise all I see are examples of songs in keys that feature non-diatonic chords in their progressions :shrugs:
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:54 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by AlanHB
^^^ Yeah modes are tonal, perhaps there's some confusion with terms occurring here.

Otherwise all I see are examples of songs in keys that feature non-diatonic chords in their progressions :shrugs:
You mean chords that are, "not modal interchanges", but rather, "chords borrowed from parallel keys".

It does beg the question, "then which keys aren't parallel".?


"Po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe, tow- may-toe, tow-mah- toe ".

(People have told me you couldn't translate that joke to the printed page, I say, "I just did").

Sorry, I just had to get that out of my system.

Still in all, I think you missed the most worthwhile and conciliatory part of this discussion, which was actually the existence of diatonic chords in modal music.

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Old 01-03-2013, 06:10 AM   #35
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^^^ I personally think "modal interchange" is a silly term as it has nothing to do with modes. Otherwise I always thought that modal chord progressions (if you could call them that) would have to exclusively feature diatonic chords as a non-diatonic chord would enforce the existence of accidentals, drawing the harmonic context into key.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:15 AM   #36
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you can have a piece that goes from a modal perspective (as in conventionally and functionally modal) to a key system, but i don't think it would be possible to eliminate such a strong pull to the tonic to return to it being legitimately modal, even if you repeated the exact same (and previously functional) section juxtaposed after rather than before a point of cadence where a tonic is solidified.

but when you're pulling in "it's in harmonic minor" or whatever, we go back to confusing keys and scales by putting them in the same category. a song can have all 7 notes within the confines of a scale, including a modal scale, but it will almost always fall into a major or minor key due to our innate understanding of tonal music and almost inherent sense of cadence that will prevent us from doing anything off the wall without either trying to or without immersing ourselves very far from the realm of conventional music long enough to adapt a new sense of fundamentals. one of those will sound very forced, and the other requires a lot of time and patience that shouldn't be a factor for people who don't yet have the basics of modern tonality down to absolute mastery.

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Originally Posted by AlanHB
^^^ I personally think "modal interchange" is a silly term as it has nothing to do with modes. Otherwise I always thought that modal chord progressions (if you could call them that) would have to exclusively feature diatonic chords as a non-diatonic chord would enforce the existence of accidentals, drawing the harmonic context into key.


it actually does, but in the sense that the only "modes" are the major and minor keys. you're changing from a major to minor mode, or vice versa, or to another mode of similar quality with a different tonic. it's very easy to confuse this with the church modes (both the scales as well as the conventions implied by that) so we end up with 3 different kinds of modes depending on context and they're all damn near useless.

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Old 01-03-2013, 06:28 AM   #37
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How could I have better phrased that to get my point across?

My point was, substitution of a harmony that would merge modal music into keyed music.

The Norwegian Wood example is a good one. Most agree that the verse is mixolydian, yet it is re-entered from the chorus with an A major that is functioning as a V chord in both D minor and D major. The existence of the one, "out of mode chord", doesn't really force the song into a key.

I'm baffled why this forum is so close minded as to see that there is an "inheritance factor" from modes in modern keyed music. Once upon a time we "spake", now in the past tense, "we spoke". You should be able to see the derivation and influence in the modern form, without denying the existence of the past.

And I agree, most of these threads start out dumb, as did this one. "I'm tired of keys, so I want to learn modes", doesn't put anybody in the mood for a rational or measured response.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:37 AM   #38
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but when you're pulling in "it's in harmonic minor" or whatever, we go back to confusing keys and scales by putting them in the same category. a song can have all 7 notes within the confines of a scale, including a modal scale, but it will almost
That happened right here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by food1010
Sure it has a lot of flamenco tendencies, but that doesn't mean it's in phrygian dominant.


I just let it slide. I know full well that "Phrygian dominant" is not a mode, but rather a scale. would anybody extend me the courtesy of overlooking that statement if I were the one that made it? Frankly, I doubt it very much.

But by saying something is, "in harmonic minor", you also tacitly acknowledge the harmonies that accompany the scale. If I said "natural minor", you'd automatically adjust the harmony to a b7, would you not? When I say, "harmonic minor" you think of the natural 7th.

None of this matters. We play in keys while dabbling in modes on rare occasions. The rest of what goes on in these threads is largely semantic fencing, and the imposition of opinion. Law of the jungle really.

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Old 01-03-2013, 06:45 AM   #39
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wow you act like i was picking on you, i usually don't even read your dumb posts, i just saw somebody post "in harmonic minor" and used that as an example
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:53 AM   #40
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wow you act like i was picking on you, i usually don't even read your dumb posts, i just saw somebody post "in harmonic minor" and used that as an example

No, actually I'm not. Hadn't even considered it. In fact, that's how I took its meaning as well.

In reality we've managed to reach a tentative accord. You ignore my "dumb posts", which I no longer trouble myself with taking offense at it.

While I, "on the other hand", (that was the setup line), no longer try to hear the zen in the sound of your one hand fapping.
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