Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Instruments > Guitar Gear & Accessories
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 01-02-2013, 05:13 AM   #1
KrymsinViking
Registered User
 
KrymsinViking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Celestion vs. Eminence: Efficiency

Hey guys,

In the next few days I will be picking up my first tube head (a 6505+) and my first cab. Iv decided on getting an Avatar 4x12 but haven't quite decided which speakers I want in it. I'm basically bouncing back and forth between Celestion v30s and Eminence Swamp Thang/Texas Heat combo. The purpose of this thread is to gather more information so that I can more accurately make my decision.

I know that speaker efficiency plays a role in how loud the amp will be and how it would sound at certain volumes. In various threads iv heard that Eminence builds more efficient speakers than Celestion, but also that their ratings might be a tad optimistic. Is this true or are the differences in efficiency mostly irrelevant? (By that I mean that they are essentially the same efficiency all things being equal)

Also wondering if anyone has any comments to make for the 6505+ with the Thangs/Heat obviously Iv heard about how well 6505s and v30s go together but less about this combo.

Lastly which of the two speaker combinations should I go for? I'm looking for a classic thrash tone like Metallica, Slayer, and Megadeth.

Thanks in advance for all help.
KrymsinViking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 07:27 AM   #2
Dave_Mc
Chirp and Swirl
 
Dave_Mc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
yeah from what i hear eminence are, on paper, more efficient, but in practice, not really because they're rated more optimistically as you said. in my limited experience (of trying like models), this is true. my gh128 (rated around 100dB) is no louder than my greenbacks (rated at 98dB), maybe even marginally less loud.

i wouldn't get texas heats and swamp thangs for those tones.

that being said, i'm not sure i'd get a 6505 either. I'd want something hot rod marshally for those tones (most of them anyway... newer metallica tones are more modern-sounding, so it does depend on exactly what you want).

I'm not sure i'd want v30s for those tones either... g1265s or g12t75s might be the thing.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blew1
I've seen some great videos on YouTube e.g The Tone King


er....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc8995
Rob Chappers would tell you he couldn't tell a cat from a dog if it would get him more hits on youtube.
Dave_Mc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 07:38 AM   #3
LP_CL
Gimme a beer!
 
LP_CL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Belgium
I never tried eminence speakers (maybe I should), but tbh, with a 120W amp efficiency of the speaker is quite irrelevant. It will play a bigger part when you play a 5 or 10 Watt amp and have to compete with a loud drummer. But with a 6505 you won't ever have troubles due to efficiency of your speakers.
__________________
Hufschmid
Washburn USA Custom Shop
PRS
Jackson USA
ESP
Music Man
Mayones
Orange
Diezel
Mesa

Band:www.citizinsane.be
LP_CL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 07:57 AM   #4
jeffo46
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
I have a Fender Frontman 25R of which I installed a Eminence Rajun Cajun 10" speaker over a month ago. This speaker turned what was a pretty sounding generic amp, into a true tone monster. It now has a tube tone with a sound that does not break up at high volumes. Plus there is also a major increase in volume as well. This sounds more like a 40-50 watt instead of a 25 watt SS combo amp and could definately be used for small club gigs with ease. I'll definately go with Eminence any day of the week.
jeffo46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 08:25 AM   #5
Dave_Mc
Chirp and Swirl
 
Dave_Mc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
Quote:
Originally Posted by LP_CL
I never tried eminence speakers (maybe I should), but tbh, with a 120W amp efficiency of the speaker is quite irrelevant. It will play a bigger part when you play a 5 or 10 Watt amp and have to compete with a loud drummer. But with a 6505 you won't ever have troubles due to efficiency of your speakers.


that's a good point.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blew1
I've seen some great videos on YouTube e.g The Tone King


er....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc8995
Rob Chappers would tell you he couldn't tell a cat from a dog if it would get him more hits on youtube.
Dave_Mc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 12:19 PM   #6
KrymsinViking
Registered User
 
KrymsinViking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mc
yeah from what i hear eminence are, on paper, more efficient, but in practice, not really because they're rated more optimistically as you said. in my limited experience (of trying like models), this is true. my gh128 (rated around 100dB) is no louder than my greenbacks (rated at 98dB), maybe even marginally less loud.

i wouldn't get texas heats and swamp thangs for those tones.

that being said, i'm not sure i'd get a 6505 either. I'd want something hot rod marshally for those tones (most of them anyway... newer metallica tones are more modern-sounding, so it does depend on exactly what you want).

I'm not sure i'd want v30s for those tones either... g1265s or g12t75s might be the thing.


I'm actually happy with the 6505+ iv put in alot of playtime with the floor model at my local GC, but thanks for the advice. As I said its just my first tube amp and I'm sure it won't be my last. I'd really like one of the Kerry King Marshalls but that's farther down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LP_CL
I never tried eminence speakers (maybe I should), but tbh, with a 120W amp efficiency of the speaker is quite irrelevant. It will play a bigger part when you play a 5 or 10 Watt amp and have to compete with a loud drummer. But with a 6505 you won't ever have troubles due to efficiency of your speakers.


I wasn't worried about the efficiency for the higher end, from time to time ill have to keep this somewhat quiet which is when the efficiency would factor in. Like I said I'v play tested the amp and it still sounds good at managable volumes I just didn't want to have super efficient speakers that might make it unruly to try and tame.
KrymsinViking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 12:38 PM   #7
LP_CL
Gimme a beer!
 
LP_CL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Belgium
Ooh, I see, so you want them to be as inefficient as possible. Can't really help you with that, but seems like V30's and those eminence speakers aren't what you're looking for then.
__________________
Hufschmid
Washburn USA Custom Shop
PRS
Jackson USA
ESP
Music Man
Mayones
Orange
Diezel
Mesa

Band:www.citizinsane.be
LP_CL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 02:33 PM   #8
red.guitar
Imagine All The People
 
red.guitar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan
If you're looking for the most efficeint speaker, it would be the eminence cannabis rex. It's made with a hemp cone, which from what I understand, makes it more efficient then any paper cone speaker.

I would recommend looking at WGS vet 30's. The Vet 30's are a vintage 30 knock off, that go for like $70 a piece. Much cheaper then buying any celestion or eminence. I see a lot of people around here use v30's with their 5150, 6505, ... etc. It's a cheap alternative.
__________________
Guitars:
Gibson Les Paul 60's Tribute
MIJ Contemporary Strat
Snake Pit Les Paul
MIM Fender Tele

Amps:
Jet City JCA 50H
Vox AC30CCH
Mesa Boogie 212
Randall 212+115
red.guitar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 02:40 PM   #9
unplugged89
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by red.guitar
If you're looking for the most efficeint speaker, it would be the eminence cannabis rex. It's made with a hemp cone, which from what I understand, makes it more efficient then any paper cone speaker.


I just a Fender Blues Junior III Limited Edition with one of those speakers in it.

In the store I was dialling in the same settings to both amps and switching the lead between them to hear the difference, and I have to say the speaker changes so much about the amp. The most relevant change to this thread is that it was noticeably louder than the standard speaker in the fender. Which is a good thing. Loud = good. So...


Yup.


It's made of hemp, which is also good. So hemp = good.

So therefore we can deduce that hemp = loud...


I've gotten a bit lost in this post.




Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
unplugged89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 03:12 PM   #10
Blktiger0
The Name's Devon! ;)
 
Blktiger0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Marrietta, Ohio, USA
If you want Thrash tones, you're not looking for Vintage 30's, really. Those are known for their upper-mid spike. Thrash tones are known for their "scooped" sound, which came from using Celestion G12T-75's. In addition, you are getting an amp that is know for it's midrange grind, so getting V30's probably isn't your best choice. In addition, it's the mids of a guitar tone that make it sound louder, making the V30 a fairly loud sounding speaker, considering it's efficiency.

Now, keep in mind that Kerry King of Slayer uses Celestion G12K-100's. If I were you, I would look into pairing those with either the G12T-75's or you could probably pair those with a V30 and be okay. If you really like Slayer tones, you could get just the K-100's, but I seriously wouldn't recommend that. I would really say that your best bet would be T-75's and K-100's in an X pattern.

I would like to add (just because I'm kinda a Thrash nut and my insides won't let me not say it) Dave is right saying that you really aren't buying the right amp. The 6505 is really meant for stuff along the lines of Metalcore and maybe some Groove Metal. For example, Machine Head uses 6505's, Bullet for my Valentine uses 6505's, All That Remains, As I Lay Dying, August Burns Red, all use 6505's. However, The Thrash scene was started on Hotrodded Marshalls with a boost pedal in front of them. All of the Big 4 were using JCM800's with some type of Overdrive in front of them and Marhsall 1960 cabs loaded with G12T-75's.

After that, it varies quite a bit. A few of them have signature amps now. Scott Ian and Kirk Hammett both have Signature Randalls andKerry King has a Signature JCM800. Dave Mustaine uses a JVM410H. In fact, a few of them have used 5150 amps, but only briefly. James uses Diezel amps now, but he and Kirk both used Mesas for a while. Triple Recs, Mark II C+'s, Stillettos, Triaxis, and I think even Tremoverbs at one point. A few of them haveused the Bogner Uberschall, and most of them used Marshall JCM2000 DSL's. A few of them have used Vintage 30 speakers, but, again, it was a brief thing.

So in the end, it kinda depends on what era of who's sound you're looking for, but if it's Slayer or Megadeth, you need to go Marshall no matter what point it was. If it's Metallica, it can vary a good bit. Anthrax is the same. If it's any of their early stuff, Marshall, but after the first few albums, it starts to get crazy. Still, most of Thrash is Marshall.
Blktiger0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 04:05 PM   #11
KrymsinViking
Registered User
 
KrymsinViking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Wow, thanks for going in depth there. As I said though I'm settled on the 6505+. I'm not buying it blind, iv spent a good amount of time playing it. I like it for thrash even if it doesn't sound exactly like those guys. Sometime in the future ill get a Marshall but for now the 6505 is what I'm going with.
KrymsinViking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 04:49 PM   #12
Blktiger0
The Name's Devon! ;)
 
Blktiger0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Marrietta, Ohio, USA
No problem

Big 4 Thrash is my area of expertise when it comes to gear.

If you like the 6505+, then get it and don't look back. It's a great amp, and really, it's pretty much an American-voiced 2-channel Hotrodded JCM800 when it comes down to it. The style of cleans, the idea of using it for Metal, then the fact that it's more American in it's voicing mean that it could certainly be used for Thrash. I mean, Groove Metal is just the Post-Thrash movement, and most of the bands that play it are pretty much just Modern Thrash, considering there's very little difference between the two. It basically comes down to tempo. Slow Thrash down a little and it's Groove. Slow Groove down a good bit and it's Sludge. Obviously, there are some tone differences, but genre definitions don't care about guitar tone.

For the speakers, though, I would see if you can go to a Music Store nearby and try your amp with a Mesa Rectifier cab and then with a Marshall 1960 cab. The Recto cab has V30's and the 1960 has G12T-75's. If they happen to have an old Marshall MF400 cab, it would have G12K-100's in it. They might be K-85's, but they are the exact same speaker, just a different name.

If they DO have an MF400, see if you can try it with each of the other two cabs. That'll give you an idea of what each speakers sounds like on it's own and what it sounds like mixed with the K-100's. Hell, You might as well try the V30's and T-75's together, too if you do that.

Last edited by Blktiger0 : 01-02-2013 at 04:51 PM.
Blktiger0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 06:53 AM   #13
Dave_Mc
Chirp and Swirl
 
Dave_Mc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
Quote:
Originally Posted by KrymsinViking
(a) I'm actually happy with the 6505+ iv put in alot of playtime with the floor model at my local GC, but thanks for the advice. As I said its just my first tube amp and I'm sure it won't be my last. I'd really like one of the Kerry King Marshalls but that's farther down the road.



(b) I wasn't worried about the efficiency for the higher end, from time to time ill have to keep this somewhat quiet which is when the efficiency would factor in. Like I said I'v play tested the amp and it still sounds good at managable volumes I just didn't want to have super efficient speakers that might make it unruly to try and tame.


(a) ah no worries, if you like it, that's fair enough. it's definitely a nice high gain amp.

(b) if you want to keep the volume down i'd probably avoid v30s... not that the kind of speakers you're likely to be looking at will make tons of difference (no-one makes an 85dB metal-voiced speaker, lol), but v30s are more or less as loud as it gets, speaker-wise. g12t75s or g1265s are a little quieter.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blew1
I've seen some great videos on YouTube e.g The Tone King


er....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc8995
Rob Chappers would tell you he couldn't tell a cat from a dog if it would get him more hits on youtube.
Dave_Mc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 04:20 PM   #14
Perverockstar69
Registered User
 
Perverockstar69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
V30s work great on low volumes IMO, try them with T75s, Ippon said thats a good speakers combo for high gain...
__________________

Mesa Royal Atlantic
Laney LC15R
Orange PPC212OB
Gibson SG Standard
LTD Viper-500
Catalinbread Ottava Magus
Jim Dunlop CFH
MXR Carbon Copy
EHX Epitome
EHX Superego
Fuzzhugger Algal Bloom
Ibanez TS9DX (mods)
Perverockstar69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 06:32 PM   #15
Blktiger0
The Name's Devon! ;)
 
Blktiger0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Marrietta, Ohio, USA
It's not that V30's sound bad at low volumes, it's that they're a really efficient speaker with a spike in frequencies that make your guitar sound louder. They aren't a speaker you want if you want to get your amp canking a little more at lower volumes. They would also make your volume knob more touchy at low volumes.

They sound great, that's not the issue, the issue is the volume level they create.
Blktiger0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 06:36 PM   #16
Wesbanez
Registered Abuser
 
Wesbanez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: East Anglia, UK
I run a Bugera 6262, so basically a 6505, through my own 2x12 cabinet loaded with Eminence The Govenor speakers. One word. Epic.

I too played around with mixing speakers a little but always came back to the Govenors...
Wesbanez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 07:06 PM   #17
gumbilicious
beginner
 
gumbilicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: on the road... again
^is the governor the eminence version of the green back?

most guitar speakers tend to be rated around 95 to 101 dB. while that is a bit, i wouldn't worry too much about speaker efficiency when choosing speakers.

if i want to be 'quiet' i tend to run software through computer speakers, this gives quite a drastic volume cut.
__________________
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
gumbilicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 08:41 PM   #18
Ippon
Amped
 
Ippon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Left Coast
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
^is the governor the eminence version of the green back?

most guitar speakers tend to be rated around 95 to 101 dB. while that is a bit, i wouldn't worry too much about speaker efficiency when choosing speakers.

if i want to be 'quiet' i tend to run software through computer speakers, this gives quite a drastic volume cut.



Here's what I remember of the Emis I have loaded in various cabs:
V30 - Governor
Greenback - Private Jack
12T75 - Man O' War
G12T65 - Tonespotter
CL80 - Red Ryder
Alnico Blue - Red Fang

At least compared to the various cabs with Celestions.
__________________
Who To Listen To EG/GG&A and GB&C .. 7/ERG Field Marshall .. e-peen
Ippon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 08:56 PM   #19
Perverockstar69
Registered User
 
Perverockstar69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blktiger0
It's not that V30's sound bad at low volumes, it's that they're a really efficient speaker with a spike in frequencies that make your guitar sound louder. They aren't a speaker you want if you want to get your amp canking a little more at lower volumes. They would also make your volume knob more touchy at low volumes.

They sound great, that's not the issue, the issue is the volume level they create.


I can play at whisper volumes with my PPC212OB (V30s)
__________________

Mesa Royal Atlantic
Laney LC15R
Orange PPC212OB
Gibson SG Standard
LTD Viper-500
Catalinbread Ottava Magus
Jim Dunlop CFH
MXR Carbon Copy
EHX Epitome
EHX Superego
Fuzzhugger Algal Bloom
Ibanez TS9DX (mods)
Perverockstar69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 09:24 PM   #20
gumbilicious
beginner
 
gumbilicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: on the road... again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ippon
Here's what I remember of the Emis I have loaded in various cabs:
V30 - Governor
Greenback - Private Jack
12T75 - Man O' War
G12T65 - Tonespotter
CL80 - Red Ryder
Alnico Blue - Red Fang

At least compared to the various cabs with Celestions.


damn, they should have that on their sight somewhere
__________________
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
gumbilicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:36 AM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.