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Old 01-03-2013, 04:31 PM   #1
tommygun99
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epiphone thunderbird or precision MIM

could anyone tell the good and bad things about both those instruments???thnks
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:29 PM   #2
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The mim p bass is kinda hit and miss interms of quality. From what I have heard but I never played one that felt bad. Definitely try the one you wanna buy before buying otherwise its a very nice bass. The epi thunderbird, ehhhhh. Im not a fan due to the neck dive, horrid lower fret acess and a dirty tone(not in a good way to me at least). If I had to pick p bass all the way.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:40 PM   #3
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I'd go with the Precision. Besides the above mentioned issues, Epis can have serious Q/A issues.

The other consideration is that the tone from a Precision blends pretty much in to most types of music. The thunderbird's tone is really singular, and doesn't always work well everywhere.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fudger
The mim p bass is kinda hit and miss interms of quality. From what I have heard but I never played one that felt bad. Definitely try the one you wanna buy before buying otherwise its a very nice bass. The epi thunderbird, ehhhhh. Im not a fan due to the neck dive, horrid lower fret acess and a dirty tone(not in a good way to me at least). If I had to pick p bass all the way.

Thunderbird:
No depth of tone.
Poor higher fret access.
Neck dive.
No sustain.
General poor design.

MIM Precision:
Overpriced.
Overpriced.
Overpriced.

As someone with experience with both, don't buy either.

Get a Classic Vibe Squier or an Ibanez SR; you get at least what you paid for.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
Thunderbird:
No depth of tone.
Poor higher fret access.
Neck dive.
No sustain.
General poor design.

MIM Precision:
Overpriced.
Overpriced.
Overpriced.

As someone with experience with both, don't buy either.

Get a Classic Vibe Squier or an Ibanez SR; you get at least what you paid for.

Huh? I got my MIM P bass used for 300 bucks and it blows any Squier CV away. Better woods, better electronics and better QC.

OT: Go used. No one buys Fenders new anymore. As I stated above I got my P bass used, in perfect condition. The only thing wrong with it was it had crap strings on it, which I fixed putting on flats.
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I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard817
Better woods,

Alder, basswood, agathis. Same crap.
Quote:
better electronics

In a passive P bass there's nothing to go better or worse. The CV and VM Squiers have better pickups.
Quote:
and better QC.

Nope, they're made in pretty much the same conditions with no proper final check/setup.


If you can hear that much of a difference in the comparisons then you're a filthy liar. (Aside from the Squiers having fresher strings.)
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:59 PM   #7
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I absolutely love my Thunderbird. Move the strap button and the neck dive is gone, the only amp I haven't been able to get a good tone out of it on is a Fender Rumble 15 (and that's not exactly quality so go figure). The tone is awesome to me, and if it's not to you you can change pickups. The higher frets are a little hard to reach, but I've never needed any higher than 15 realistically so it never bothered me.

That being said, the P Bass is rather good too. I know most people hate Epi Thunderbirds here, but mine is rather great.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:00 AM   #8
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TBird you need to go in and play one for yourself. Some people love them, others hate them.
MiM's I've heard mixed things, from what I can gather those who get good ones love them, but there's some real duds that come out there too. From what I can tell the Squier VMs aren't quite as good as a good MiM (pretty close though) but they have better QC so they're more consistent. The CVs are supposed to be equal or better than the MiMs and with better QC (again, more consistent).
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
Alder, basswood, agathis. Same crap.

You're kidding right?
It's not just the type of wood, it's also the quality of the wood. One reason the VM/CV's are so inexpensive is because they use a lower grade of wood.
There is a reason Fender doesn't use basswood or agathis. Basswood tends to be soft, even the higher grade cuts, and agathis is very cheap cuz even the higher grade stuff is really not all that great. This is why it's considered a poor mans mahogany.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
In a passive P bass there's nothing to go better or worse. The CV and VM Squiers have better pickups.

That's a totally subjective comment. Now look at the pots and the wiring. Pots used in a MIM are higher quality, even the soldering in a MIM is done with more care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
Nope, they're made in pretty much the same conditions with no proper final check/setup.

No, just, no.
The Squiers are made in pretty much Sweat shop conditions.

Fender MIM's are not.

Notice how everone is wearing a face mask? Notice how much nicer the factory is compared to the Chinese one? Mexican working conditions (especially for US companies) is far better than the best Chinese factory.

Now tell me theres no difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
If you can hear that much of a difference in the comparisons then you're a filthy liar. (Aside from the Squiers having fresher strings.)

I can tell a difference bewteen them. I guess that makes me a filthy liar then? Actually most of the commenters on that video could to. I guess they are all filthy liars as well?

Most of the people ON THIS SITE can hear a difference. Guess they're filthy liars?
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Originally Posted by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard817
The Squiers are made in pretty much Sweat shop conditions.
Unendorsed video by an external source to a communal factory for many manufacturers
Fender MIM's are not.
Video of a Fender endorsed tour of a factory
Notice how everone is wearing a face mask? Notice how much nicer the factory is compared to the Chinese one? Mexican working conditions (especially for US companies) is far better than the best Chinese factory.

You're saying that Fender is legitimately going to show you the worst parts of the factory, and how it runs on a day to day basis? Think about it, obviously they're going to do it up if they're running a tour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard817
I can tell a difference bewteen them. I guess that makes me a filthy liar then? Actually most of the commenters on that video could to. I guess they are all filthy liars as well?

Most of the people ON THIS SITE can hear a difference. Guess they're filthy liars?

cool it man, he shouldn't call you a filthy liar but you shouldn't react. I can only pick a slight difference, outside the strings. Also, the only fair test is a blind test and some of those were MiJ not MiM so it's not really a valid video to argue over.

TS, I think what can be gathered from the Squier VM/CV vs Fender MiM argument is that which is better is fairly subjective and you need to try out both and decide not only which is better, but which is better value, for yourself.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterbox272
You're saying that Fender is legitimately going to show you the worst parts of the factory, and how it runs on a day to day basis? Think about it, obviously they're going to do it up if they're running a tour.

If you can find a better video, then please post it, cuz I looked and that's the only one I could find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterbox272
cool it man, he shouldn't call you a filthy liar but you shouldn't react. I can only pick a slight difference, outside the strings. Also, the only fair test is a blind test and some of those were MiJ not MiM so it's not really a valid video to argue over.

Reading back over my previous post I did sound pissy, but I wasn't. I was more or less pointing out the flaws in the logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterbox272
TS, I think what can be gathered from the Squier VM/CV vs Fender MiM argument is that which is better is fairly subjective....

I agree to an extent. Quality is objectively measurable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chatterbox272
....and you need to try out both and decide not only which is better, but which is better value, for yourself.

^This 1 trillion percent.

We might debate a lot on here, but what it really boils down to is what Chatterbox said. Which is best for YOU.
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Originally Posted by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:14 AM   #12
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In the last 4/5 years the QC of the MIM's has taken a step backwards due to Fender stopping the final QC checks at the Corona plant. So they'll let through basses with sharp fret ends, dud pots, improperly seated frets, broken nuts, and other small issues. MIM instruments also sometimes use MIA woods though it's a once every blue moon type deal nowadays.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:49 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard817
It's not just the type of wood, it's also the quality of the wood. One reason the VM/CV's are so inexpensive is because they use a lower grade of wood.
There is a reason Fender doesn't use basswood or agathis. Basswood tends to be soft, even the higher grade cuts, and agathis is very cheap cuz even the higher grade stuff is really not all that great. This is why it's considered a poor mans mahogany.




There is no stigma about agathis whastoever, most Ibanez basses up to (and maybe including) the SR500 are made of agathis (and they're ****ing awesome). Mahogany weighs a shitload and IMO doesn't sound a huge amount better. My Hagstrom (Mahogany), my Peavey (Basswood) and previously owned Ibanezeseseseses (Agathis) all sounded surprisingly similar (All had/have active pickups), the cheaper cuts didn't seem to have an adverse effect.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:10 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard817
You're kidding right?
It's not just the type of wood, it's also the quality of the wood. One reason the VM/CV's are so inexpensive is because they use a lower grade of wood.
Ever wondered why they don't offer a clear coat on the MIM Standards? Its because they're using the lowest quality alder they can find. The extra cost is for the headstock decal.

Quote:
That's a totally subjective comment. Now look at the pots and the wiring. Pots used in a MIM are higher quality, even the soldering in a MIM is done with more care.

"Its subjective" followed by objective statement. ok.
Yes, I have compared the wiring in Squiers and Fenders, same crap.
Quote:
No, just, no.

I refer you to chatterbox272.
Quote:
I can tell a difference bewteen them. I guess that makes me a filthy liar then? Actually most of the commenters on that video could to. I guess they are all filthy liars as well?

The Squiers have brighter strings and the Fender Jazz has hotter pickups. I'm willing to bet that all those commenters are trying to defend their purchases too.
Quote:
Most of the people ON THIS SITE can hear a difference. Guess they're filthy liars?
Maybe not filthy liars but they're certainly kidding themselves.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanner93


There is no stigma about agathis whastoever, most Ibanez basses up to (and maybe including) the SR500 are made of agathis (and they're ****ing awesome). Mahogany weighs a shitload and IMO doesn't sound a huge amount better. My Hagstrom (Mahogany), my Peavey (Basswood) and previously owned Ibanezeseseseses (Agathis) all sounded surprisingly similar (All had/have active pickups), the cheaper cuts didn't seem to have an adverse effect.

Agathis is used primarily in inexpensive guitars because it's an inexpensive wood. Only basses/guitars I see made of agathis are sub 500 dollar.
SR500 is mahogany. Looking at the SR models on the Ibanez website only the 300 series is made of agathis the rest are maple, ash or mahogany. Read into that what you will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
Ever wondered why they don't offer a clear coat on the MIM Standards? Its because they're using the lowest quality alder they can find. The extra cost is for the headstock decal.

So using your logic I guess that's the same reason Squier doesn't offer a transparent finish on any of there alder basses/guitars huh?
Actually the only Squiers I've seen with transparent finishes are the ones made of maple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
"Its subjective" followed by objective statement. ok.
Yes, I have compared the wiring in Squiers and Fenders, same crap.

Reading comprehension. It does the brain good.
My subjective comment was referring to your "better pick ups" comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
I refer you to chatterbox272.

The Squiers have brighter strings and the Fender Jazz has hotter pickups. I'm willing to bet that all those commenters are trying to defend their purchases too.Maybe not filthy liars but they're certainly kidding themselves.

yeah, cuz they can't possibly hear any discernible difference between Fender and Squiers

EDIT:
Just because you're not able to hear a difference doesn't mean others can't.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.

Last edited by Alucard817 : 01-04-2013 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard817
Agathis is used primarily in inexpensive guitars because it's an inexpensive wood. Only basses/guitars I see made of agathis are sub 500 dollar.
SR500 is mahogany. Looking at the SR models on the Ibanez website only the 300 series is made of agathis the rest are maple, ash or mahogany. Read into that what you will.
I read that people will pay more for a tonewood with no tone. Ash is usually more attractive than maple but is only very slightly brighter than alder. Alder is very, very subtly bright than bass wood and has the same grain as agathis (assuming you get a choice cut, not featured in Mexican Fenders), basswood is neutral which is to its credit in my mind, agathis is pretty much identical but is a little denser, it also has an almost identical grain to alder even though it is much cheaper.

I should point out that you'd have to put all the frequencies of these tonewoods on a chart to know the differences as they are out of the spectrum of human hearing.

Now, bubinga, wenge, maple, rosewood; they all have a real character that you can hear.
Quote:
So using your logic I guess that's the same reason Squier doesn't offer a transparent finish on any of there alder basses/guitars huh?
Actually the only Squiers I've seen with transparent finishes are the ones made of maple.
The VM Jazz, VM Precision and Matt Freeman Sig are all agathis.
Quote:
My subjective comment was referring to your "better pick ups" comment.
All the passiveMexican Fenders I've owned and played have had very low output, even for passive single coil standards. This is an objective flaw in my eyes, Fender could easily fix this by putting their Duncan Designed pickups into standard Fenders.
Quote:
yeah, cuz they can't possibly hear any discernible difference between Fender and Squiers
EDIT:
Just because you're not able to hear a difference doesn't mean others can't.

I can hear a difference. High-end Squiers have higher outputs, better bridges and the advantages of all the upgrades you can do for the 200 price difference.

I know my shit when it comes to Fenders and Squiers, I've had enough of them.

I think this is a pretty important debate that could deviate from this thead's original point. A dedicated thread might be in order.

Last edited by Spaz91 : 01-04-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:50 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
I read that people will pay more for a tonewood with no tone. Ash is usually more attractive than maple but is only very slightly brighter than alder. Alder is very, very subtly bright than bass wood and has the same grain as agathis (assuming you get a choice cut, not featured in Mexican Fenders), basswood is neutral which is to its credit in my mind, agathis is pretty much identical but is a little denser, it also has an almost identical grain to alder even though it is much cheaper.

I should point out that you'd have to put all the frequencies of these tonewoods on a chart to know the differences as they are out of the spectrum of human hearing.

Now, bubinga, wenge, maple, rosewood; they all have a real character that you can hear.The VM Jazz, VM Precision and Matt Freeman Sig are all agathis.

I know my shit when it comes to Fenders and Squiers, I've had enough of them.

I think this is a pretty important debate that could deviate from this thead's original point. A dedicated thread might be in order.


Holy shit, for once we actually agree......

In cheaper basses it doesn't really matter what wood it is. You will not be able to tell the difference between agathis, basswood etc. For the record, basswood basses are some of the best IMO.

Did you really just make a powerpoint to illustrate your point though?

And finally, yes. This. needs. a. dedicated. thread. now.
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanner93
Holy shit, for once we actually agree......

In cheaper basses it doesn't really matter what wood it is. You will not be able to tell the difference between agathis, basswood etc. For the record, basswood basses are some of the best IMO.

Did you really just make a powerpoint to illustrate your point though?

And finally, yes. This. needs. a. dedicated. thread. now.

Basswood is excellent, any bass designed with versatility in mind (such as the Bongo) should be made with it.

And yes I did, this is a point that I make far too often.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:34 PM   #19
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Basswood, as with all woods comes in varying degrees of quality... the Japanese basswood, as I understand, is particularly good. As to whether body wood makes much difference anyway... well, whole new can of worms.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:26 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
I read that people will pay more for a tonewood with no tone. Ash is usually more attractive than maple but is only very slightly brighter than alder. Alder is very, very subtly bright than bass wood and has the same grain as agathis (assuming you get a choice cut, not featured in Mexican Fenders), basswood is neutral which is to its credit in my mind, agathis is pretty much identical but is a little denser, it also has an almost identical grain to alder even though it is much cheaper.

...and what does this have to do with my comment about agathis being used in inexpensive guitars?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
I should point out that you'd have to put all the frequencies of these tonewoods on a chart to know the differences as they are out of the spectrum of human hearing.

Also point out that each cut has it's own characteristics. Again, just because you can't hear a difference between tonewoods doesn't mean no one else can.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
The VM Jazz, VM Precision and Matt Freeman Sig are all agathis.

Nice way to side step my comment about alder here.
Only two of the jazzes, and only one P bass model are made of agathis. the rest of the VM/CV models are basswood, and the transparent finishes are maple. The Freeman sig is also basswood.
Squier does use alder in quite a few of their builds, namely the Affinities, and there CV 60's strat to name just two.
So my point about your flawed logic about transparent finishes on alder still stands since neither Fender nor Squier offers it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
All the passiveMexican Fenders I've owned and played have had very low output, even for passive single coil standards. This is an objective flaw in my eyes, Fender could easily fix this by putting their Duncan Designed pickups into standard Fenders.

Maybe learn to do better set ups? My Fender P bass has damn good output on it's pups and I bought blind. Actually it's output is comparable to my VM Mustang bass output. Actually I have to set my VM Mustangs pups really low, or it gets muddy as hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
I can hear a difference. High-end Squiers have higher outputs, better bridges and the advantages of all the upgrades you can do for the 200 price difference.

Um...no...just...no. As I stated above my Fender's output is just as powerful as my VM Squier.
Actually Fender hardware is made in the Corona plant. No one knows where Squier hardware is produced, which gives me pause about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
I know my shit when it comes to Fenders and Squiers

So much misinformation in your posts leads me to disagree.
As for your link. I am not signing up to some website just so I can waste my time watching the peak of your fanboyism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaz91
I think this is a pretty important debate that could deviate from this thead's original point. A dedicated thread might be in order.

Not allowed since it would essentially be a Vs. thread.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanner93
You will not be able to tell the difference between agathis, basswood etc. For the record, basswood basses are some of the best IMO.

Only difference I can see between them are weight and tone. Agathis seems a little lighter in weight and maybe a little brighter to me, but I don't haven't owned enough agathis basses to really compare it against basswood.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatalGear41
In the end, the only question is: what bass would Jesus play?

I think he's a Fender Jazz guy.

Last edited by Alucard817 : 01-04-2013 at 09:36 PM.
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