Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Recordings
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 01-13-2013, 03:29 PM   #1
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Ethics question - would you tell? (recording)

You've mixed something for someone. The drums sounded like totall @ss, but the performances were fine.

Given that the drum tuning made the drums that were recorded virtually unusable, you replaced every last one of them with samples. The sound of the original drums are heard in the overheads, along with the cymbals, albeit with much of the low end rolled off, so you actually *can* hear his own actual drums in the mix. The ratio is probably 90% samples and 10% his drums. No cymbals or hi-hats were sample-replaced.

You get a mix that you and he are both happy with this way. In fact, he's really happy with the sound of the drums.

Do you tell him that the drums he is hearing are not his?

I don't, personally, think it's that big a deal to keep it your little secret. I don't tell the performer about every other little thing I did, including the odd edit for timing, or a very small amount of pitch correction. They hear it back and they're happy. Why poison the well?

My personal line is that I tell them if I have changed something that they didn't actually play. (like copying and pasting a couple of tom hits in a transition that they didn't play, etc.)

If you were a client, would you want to know what the mixer did, or would you just want to be happy that you got something that you played and that it sounds great?

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 03:37 PM   #2
kyle62
Need a dispenser here!
 
kyle62's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NW England
Absolutely tell them. They're never going to learn otherwise. You did your job, which is to get them the best possible sound. Reckon it was the kit/tuning at fault or the miking?
__________________
"I don't care about the things I leave at home, cause things can't really keep you company when you're alone"
Mark Sandman


Head honcho at Stubborn Sound!
https://soundcloud.com/stubbornsound
kyle62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 03:59 PM   #3
GaryBillington
Grumpier than normal.
 
GaryBillington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Trow Vegas
If the problem was caused by the drum tuning, then you probably shouldn't have recorded them until it had been sorted. Would you record a guitarist if he was out of tune?

As you're asking the question as if you're only mixing something recorded by someone else though (and I'm assuming this is hypothetical...?), go with Kyle's answer. Tell them what you had to do, and if the original recording was done by a studio tell them never to go back.
__________________
.
Gibson LP Studio x2 (1x Worn Brown Satin, 1x Swamp Ash)
MXR M132 Super Comp > EHX Worm > TC Electronic Polytune > MXR Custom Badass 78 > EXH Glove > EHX East River Drive > Zoom G3
Laney VC30 2x10 combo + 1x12 extension cab
GaryBillington is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:05 PM   #4
MatrixClaw
UG God
 
MatrixClaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Climbin In Yo Window, Snatchin Yo People Up
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryBillington
If the problem was caused by the drum tuning, then you probably shouldn't have recorded them until it had been sorted. Would you record a guitarist if he was out of tune?

I tend to agree with this, but at the same time, tuning drums is an art, and very few people know how to do it properly; but if it was that bad and you're the one who recorded it, some more time should've definitely been spent on tuning them.

That being said, I don't really see the point of telling them everything needed to be replaced because it sounded bad... unless they were the ones who recorded it and you feel like telling them might be beneficial to them on further projects. Even drums that were recorded in the best environment, under the most optimal circumstances, still get replaced a lot of the time. It's kind of the same thing as tracking DIs and then reamping later because the original tone doesn't fit as well as you thought it would
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mc
I've had tube amps for a while now, but never actually had any go down on me
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1565
maybe you're not saying the right things? an amp likes to know you care.





www.SanctityStudios.com
MatrixClaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:10 PM   #5
SrThompson
Registered User
 
SrThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
I would want to know. In fact I will prefer that you talk to me before doing something. And also, the band has to know that the drummer is not good and he needs practice.
SrThompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:24 PM   #6
supersac
Registered User
 
supersac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
id like to know that way next time we work on it so it eventually doesnt have to be replaced
__________________
a youtube link?
maybe you should click on it
http://www.youtube.com/user/supersac69


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoomit
You sound like an amazing friend
i sound like one...im secretly a huge dick

my bands soundcloud
http://soundcloud.com/thenativetongues
supersac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:28 PM   #7
iam19feettall
Registered User
 
iam19feettall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Tell them, if the product sounds good, then they should be happy be with that. I mean that's what they want right? And it's still their ideas and such. But, that said, I'd want to know so I can do something differently I record (not go to the same studio, pay more attention to the tuning of the drums, etc).
__________________
Gibson SG (JN & JB)
Squier Strat

Ibanez TS9
Boss Volume Pedal
Dunlop Cry Baby
Boss DS-1

Fender Blues Junior
Crate 15w
iam19feettall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:35 PM   #8
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Here's what happened.

He's a kid - 17. He wrote the songs and played all the instruments. Drums is his first instrument, but he hasn't learned how to tune them yet. I'm not a drummer, and thus, only have a vague idea.

Honest to God, I was in the control room and had him hit the first tom... I thought he hit the snare drum with the snare lever off. I spent about 45 minutes (blind leading the blind, more or less) and fixed his hi-hat stand and got his drums sounding a lot better. I thought that I might be able to do *something* with them.

At that point, you start balancing "how is this kid's mom's money - and my time - best spent? By continuing to screw around with his drums, or by getting down to business and seeing what I could do with what we were able to get? Figuring that telling his mom that we spent the day screwing around with tuning his drums and not getting anything recorded was probably a bad plan, we got to work recording.

I did talk to him about the importance of learning how to tune drums and the difference it will make in his sound. You can be the best drummer in the world, but if you don't *sound* like a good drummer, it is all for naught. I also told his mom about that discussion.

I fought with mixing the damned things for the better part of an hour without really getting very far. I've miked drums many times and have never (well, not this decade anyways) gotten a worse drum sound. (see "tom sounded like snare" above)

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:38 PM   #9
rolandroi
it is known
 
rolandroi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wherever I may roam
Don't tell them. I just wan't to be even.
rolandroi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:53 PM   #10
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Here is what they sounded like after I spent some time trying to tune them and then using tissue and tape to try deadening some of the ringing. F** me if I could do anything with the kick. Haha. I did a little bit of leveling and panned the overheads and the toms. No EQ, compression, etc. Oh, and I also nudged the overheads a smidge so they'd be in time and in phase with the close mics.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwM...1VwbEJpLXM/edit

Here they are now:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwM...2lFcXlHcFE/edit

... still working on the toms a bit...

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.

Last edited by axemanchris : 01-13-2013 at 05:03 PM.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:58 PM   #11
Odirunn
Hi, I'm Adam
 
Odirunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Orleans, LA
"Your band is bad and you should feel bad."
__________________
Let's party.
Odirunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 05:11 PM   #12
Cavalcade
Days, I feel it...
 
Cavalcade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
TIL you can share audio with Google Docs. Also, you didn't just gate the snare in post?
__________________
If you're reading this, it means UG still has this, but not a :sam: smiley.
Cavalcade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 05:12 PM   #13
ChemicalFire
King of Bacon Pancakes
 
ChemicalFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The United Kingdom
I'd tell them if it was due to poor audio in the first place. Though in your position I'd explain WHY you rushed through even though you knew they sounded bad, just so they don't turn around and start yelling that you've not done your job right.

If it was just stylistic thing, like I was recording a metalcore band or something, then I'd see no need to.

I mean at the moment I don't even record live drums, so I've never had the problem.
__________________
ABSENT SKIES
FFO Counter Parts, Misery Signals


The Site I Write For / My Soundcloud

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!


Quote:
Originally Posted by MustangMan311
Proving yet again that you consistently have the worst taste on this forum.
ChemicalFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 05:26 PM   #14
DisarmGoliath
Disarms Goliaths
 
DisarmGoliath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Birmingham, UK
Semi-related, but we had a review come through the other day and one part said the production was like the good old days before everything was triggered samples that sound robotic and fake. I was pleased that I managed to be tasteful enough with the drum mix to pull that off, but I feel partly bad that I was somehow able to get away with using sample augmentation so convincingly Still, I presume they understood that the kick was augmented with a sample, though I kept the original drums in there at a higher level than Chris mentions in OP - I'd say about 50% of the snare/toms are real, maybe more for the snare, and the kick's click is aided by a sample, but a lot of the low end and punch was from the original mic source.
__________________

Music Stuff

Facebook - Website - YouTube

DisarmGoliath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 05:29 PM   #15
GaryBillington
Grumpier than normal.
 
GaryBillington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Trow Vegas
Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
Here's what happened.

etc...

In that case, definitely tell him what you did.

He knows you spent 45 minutes trying to fix the problem, and I'm guessing after that time you said something along the lines of "OK, neither of us know what we're doing, lets just get on with the recording".

He also knows he got a good mix at the end of it, which is what he was really paying for.

As that's the case, telling him what you did shouldn't be a surprise and he'll probably be impressed with the extra effort you put in for him.

As drums are his main instrument he needs to learn how to tune them, if he thinks you made his badly tuned drums sound great he won't know how important this is, but if he knows you had to replace most of his work to create the final mix he'll be motivated to get things right next time.
__________________
.
Gibson LP Studio x2 (1x Worn Brown Satin, 1x Swamp Ash)
MXR M132 Super Comp > EHX Worm > TC Electronic Polytune > MXR Custom Badass 78 > EXH Glove > EHX East River Drive > Zoom G3
Laney VC30 2x10 combo + 1x12 extension cab
GaryBillington is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 05:43 PM   #16
MatrixClaw
UG God
 
MatrixClaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Climbin In Yo Window, Snatchin Yo People Up
Honestly, in the first clip with the natural drums, it doesn't sound nearly as bad as I thought it would. The drums sound thin more than they sound incorrectly tuned. The first fill isn't that bad as far as the pitch goes, but the fills later do sound a little wonky. The problem here to me is more that he's hitting the drums like a wimp, which makes them sound puny.

The drum sound on the natural clip reminds me a lot of old 70's recordings Definitely dig your augmented version better (depending on what kind of music it is, I suppose), but I feel like I could've gotten closer to that sound with the original files than you're giving them credit.


For future sessions, since you aren't practiced in tuning drums, and most drummers aren't either, I'd really suggest you get a Tune-bot. Makes tuning REALLY easy, since it shows the tuning in Hz, so you can literally tune the drums to the key of the song if you wanted and it'll sound pretty bitchin, if you have no idea what to do
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mc
I've had tube amps for a while now, but never actually had any go down on me
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1565
maybe you're not saying the right things? an amp likes to know you care.





www.SanctityStudios.com
MatrixClaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 05:50 PM   #17
tukk04
UG's Neil Young
 
tukk04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatrixClaw
Honestly, in the first clip with the natural drums, it doesn't sound nearly as bad as I thought it would. The drums sound thin more than they sound incorrectly tuned. The first fill isn't that bad as far as the pitch goes, but the fills later do sound a little wonky. The problem here to me is more that he's hitting the drums like a wimp, which makes them sound puny.

The drum sound on the natural clip reminds me a lot of old 70's recordings Definitely dig your augmented version better (depending on what kind of music it is, I suppose), but I feel like I could've gotten closer to that sound with the original files than you're giving them credit.

Exactly, the drums could have sounded alright with some tweaking but in the name of speed and cost-effectiveness, I believe TS made the right choice to do drum replacement.

TS, I think you should tell your client and explain that it was the best option to save him money and still get a good sound. Tell him it's still his playing, just with a different sound.

If you think he'll have a problem or react negatively, then don't tell him to save yourself the hassle. Realistically, your decision should depend on your client's maturity level/attitude towards compromise.
__________________
Reverbnation
Facebook

Soundcloud

Last edited by tukk04 : 01-13-2013 at 05:55 PM.
tukk04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 07:07 PM   #18
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Thanks for the replies, all!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalcade
TIL you can share audio with Google Docs. Also, you didn't just gate the snare in post?


I love Google Docs. :-)

I gated the snare in neither of the samples I posted. I could have gated the snare in the crap sample, but given that I was going to replace it anyways, it was kinda pointless. Besides that, gating was the least of my worries on the snare track. Once I sample-replaced, gating would only be used as an effect, and it was not the effect I was looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
Semi-related, but we had a review come through the other day and one part said the production was like the good old days....


Haha... awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryBillington
I'm guessing after that time you said something along the lines of "OK, neither of us know what we're doing, lets just get on with the recording".


That's exactly what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryBillington

He also knows he got a good mix at the end of it, which is what he was really paying for.

As that's the case, telling him what you did shouldn't be a surprise and he'll probably be impressed with the extra effort you put in for him.

As drums are his main instrument he needs to learn how to tune them, if he thinks you made his badly tuned drums sound great he won't know how important this is, but if he knows you had to replace most of his work to create the final mix he'll be motivated to get things right next time.


I think I'm going to go with this - especially the "if he thinks you made his badly tuned drums sound great he won't know how important this is" part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatrixClaw
Honestly, in the first clip with the natural drums, it doesn't sound nearly as bad as I thought it would. The drums sound thin more than they sound incorrectly tuned. The first fill isn't that bad as far as the pitch goes, but the fills later do sound a little wonky. The problem here to me is more that he's hitting the drums like a wimp, which makes them sound puny.


I agree entirely. After about 45 minutes of tuning, I got them that far. The kick was beyond me. The snare - that's exactly the problem. If he had hit it with more authority, it might have been perfectly usable.

After replacing the kick and snare, the toms sounded kinda wooden or boxy, so I said, "screw it, I've come this far."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatrixClaw
(depending on what kind of music it is, I suppose)


Kinda Silversun Pickups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatrixClaw
For future sessions, since you aren't practiced in tuning drums, and most drummers aren't either, I'd really suggest you get a Tune-bot. Makes tuning REALLY easy, since it shows the tuning in Hz, so you can literally tune the drums to the key of the song if you wanted and it'll sound pretty bitchin, if you have no idea what to do


Geez. I had no idea that even existed. I just might pick one of those up.

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 12:34 PM   #19
sandyman323
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
It might be too late to chime in but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway.

Show him both mixes.

It's not really worth telling him how much extra work you had to do or how bad his kit sounds unless he can hear it for himself to know just how bad it really was. If you give him both he'll get a sound he's happy with and be able to clearly hear how much of a difference proper drum tuning/playing can make in a mix. You may not even have to say anything about them being bad. If it's bad enough he will hear it for himself and make that call himself.
sandyman323 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 04:06 PM   #20
kakos
Registered User
 
kakos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
tell them, generally, drums are the thing that makes or breaks the whole album for me anyway, if drum tones crap, everything else seems crap,

you can get away with a not so perfect guitar tone or not so perfect bass tone, but drums and vocals should be always pristine!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgrockr
You can buy whatever guitar you want, you don't have to be at a certain skill level to buy one. This is real life, not some guitar-playing RPG where you have to unlock new guitars.

Last edited by kakos : 01-14-2013 at 04:09 PM.
kakos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:06 AM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.