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Old 01-16-2013, 03:34 PM   #61
dannyalcatraz
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I've heard motley crue described as "classic rock" on the radio, lol, if motley crue is classic rock then led zep and deep purple certainly are


Classic Rock is a radio format, not a genre, IMHO. One of the biggest classic rock stations here in Dallas plays U2, Simple Minds, and other bands of that ilk alongside Crüe & Purple...and the occasional Metallica.

(Besides, I don't feel like buying a computer program to start drawing Venn Diagrams for music & bands to post here...)
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:08 PM   #62
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oh i agree- i'm not saying i agree with them

i'm just saying it's important to be mindful of what people think things are so that you don't make them get the wrong end of the stick, that's all.

I probably shouldn't say, "strats can do metal" to little-Timmy-who's-thinking-of-taking-up-guitar when I consider deep purple metal, when I know Timmy considers killswitch engage to be metal. That's all I meant.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:33 PM   #63
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In a way, Classic Rock does seem like a silly term. Once is was Rock/Metal/Punk. Now it's pushed into the 'Dad Rock' category just because other music has moved away from that.

If Led Zeppelin were metal, they are still metal. They didn't change, everything else did.

If you go on that logic bands that we call Metal today are surely something else and should be referred to by their sub genre of Metal more often than they are and not as Metal. (Still with me? I'm lost )

What I mean is; Led Zeppelin are at the top of the genre, then all the sub genres fall underneath it and just because music changed, it doesn't mean that the original use of the term Metal is obsolete.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:05 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Mephaphil
In a way, Classic Rock does seem like a silly term. Once is was Rock/Metal/Punk. Now it's pushed into the 'Dad Rock' category just because other music has moved away from that.

If Led Zeppelin were metal, they are still metal. They didn't change, everything else did.

If you go on that logic bands that we call Metal today are surely something else and should be referred to by their sub genre of Metal more often than they are and not as Metal. (Still with me? I'm lost )

What I mean is; Led Zeppelin are at the top of the genre, then all the sub genres fall underneath it and just because music changed, it doesn't mean that the original use of the term Metal is obsolete.


i agree.

that being said, those different subgenres (or even the overall genre) are important in terms of what gear is suitable for them. it doesn't matter if radio gets the genre wrong, it's not hurting anyone... it is doing people harm if we recommend the wrong gear for that genre.

EDIT: that's why any time someone says, "recommend me something for metal" (or any genre) we normally ask exactly what they mean by that genre, we ask them to list some bands.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:14 PM   #65
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Led Zeppelin is not metal and never was (they don't even want to be considered as metal). Calling them metal is an insult. They have only one metal song that is Achilles Last Stand. They are more blues, funk, rock, folk, country and pop than metal. And Led Zeppelin was originally a blues band. The guitar sound just isn't metal enough IMO (it's pretty near to clean sound).

But really, genres suck. And I think the listener defines what metal is. To me LZ is definitely not metal. Also the listener defines what a metal sound is. I wouldn't recommend a SSS Strat for metal because I don't see the twangy Strat sound as metal sound. It might sound good for leads but for that chugga chugga thing it's not what I would call an ideal metal sound. So why buy a SSS Strat when you can get better metal tones out of Superstrats? A Strat can do metal but some guitars can do metal better.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Led Zeppelin is not metal and never was (they don't even want to be considered as metal). Calling them metal is an insult. They have only one metal song that is Achilles Last Stand. They are more blues, funk, rock, folk, country and pop than metal. And Led Zeppelin was originally a blues band. The guitar sound just isn't metal enough IMO (it's pretty near to clean sound).

But really, genres suck. And I think the listener defines what metal is. To me LZ is definitely not metal. Also the listener defines what a metal sound is. I wouldn't recommend a SSS Strat for metal because I don't see the twangy Strat sound as metal sound. It might sound good for leads but for that chugga chugga thing it's not what I would call an ideal metal sound. So why buy a SSS Strat when you can get better metal tones out of Superstrats? A Strat can do metal but some guitars can do metal better.


Metal started off as blues rock and got heavier.

There's nothing wrong with calling Zeppelin a metal band. Their sound isn't consistently clean, they dirty it up all the time. Black Sabbath was originally a blues-rock style band too, so what's your point? Had Tony Iommi not been involved in a factory accident, I can see them still being that way today.

By chugga chugga, you mean -core bands. Chugga chugga isn't limited to metal, you are aware of that. Hardcore/punk bands do it, even pop-punk bands do it. Way to stereotype metal as "chugga chugga" by the way. Good on ya. Metal isn't all chugga chugga, nor is that the ideal metal sound.

Why should I buy a Super Strat when I can get a Strat?

Also, the quote in your sig, and your gear contradict one another.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:37 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charvel1995
Metal started off as blues rock and got heavier.


well no shit, but i mean cars started off with the wheel and if someone tells me they want a car I don't suggest they buy a wheelbarrow for that same reason...

this is just getting silly.

Genres are stupid. Agreed, to a certain extent.

They're not stupid if you're trying to get suitable gear for that genre. We can argue till the cows come home about whether led zep and killswitch engage are metal, but i need pretty different gear for those two tones. differentiating based on the guitar tones needed isn't actually that silly.

can (vintage spec) strats do metal? Sure, in a pinch.

does that mean they're ideal for metal? no.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:44 PM   #68
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well no shit, but i mean cars started off with the wheel and if someone tells me they want a car I don't suggest they buy a wheelbarrow for that same reason...


My point was that it was considered metal back then, so why are we no longer classifying it as metal.

Popular music of the 1980's is still pop music, just not the pop we're used to.

Zep and Sabbath are still metal, just not our metal.
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:01 PM   #69
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yep, and i appreciate that, and even agree to a certain extent, but at the same time categorising things just generally makes it easier. especially if you're talking about guitar tones and gear.
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:23 PM   #70
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For the _______(I don't know the word, traditional? common?)____ modern metal sound, the gain stage of the Amp is more important than any part of the guitar.

If you have a 5150, you could play metal on a Gretsch.

show


EDIT: How come whenever one of these threads comes up, it's always winds up with the regulars arguing about how terms are described and what a term actually means?

Tell me about it. This thread has become one big clusterfuck.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:20 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Charvel1995
My point was that it was considered metal back then, so why are we no longer classifying it as metal.

Popular music of the 1980's is still pop music, just not the pop we're used to.

Zep and Sabbath are still metal, just not our metal.


totally agree except of course being an old geezer they were my metal . been doing the metal thing since the beginning and all that has happend is that teh music evolved. metal is all about being heavy. zep and purple were heavy for their time just as the current bands are heavy for now. same idea. hell i remember buying the 1st Montrose album and thinking holy shit this is so heavy can't even imagine something being much heavier (except sabbath of course). times change and so does metal
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:20 PM   #72
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Personally I would classify Led Zep as blues rock. But that's based on my current interpretation which is influenced heavily by the music we have today. If they were classed as metal back in the day then that's what they are, metal. But they were still a rock & roll band.

Quote:
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Tell me about it. This thread has become one big clusterfuck.


We're having some nice discussions about the origin of metal. It's the perfect thread!
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:24 PM   #73
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As somewhat of a geezer myself, I always thought of Led Zep to be about as heavy hard rock could get without being heavy metal, with Deep Purple straddling the line, and Black Sabbath as being truly the first heavy metal band.

My $0.02.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:28 PM   #74
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EDIT: How come whenever one of these threads comes up, it's always winds up with the regulars arguing about how terms are described and what a term actually means?

It was inevitable here, since "metal" can be interpreted many different ways. It's kind of annoying, but the conversation simply can't progress if everyone is talking about something different. Unfortunately, it still hasn't progressed

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Originally Posted by dannyalcatraz
Remove "technically" please: just because things have changed in the genre doesn't mean they get kicked out of the genre.


No, they are technically metal. They shouldn't be kicked out of the genre, but they should be differentiated from other forms of metal with which they share little in common. Sub-genres exist for a reason, and in this case they help quite a bit. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly where Zep falls, except for "classic rock"(which used to be rock from one era when I was growing up), but to just call them metal is needlessly confusing.

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Old 01-16-2013, 07:45 PM   #75
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It was inevitable here, since "metal" can be interpreted many different ways. It's kind of annoying, but the conversation simply can't progress if everyone is talking about something different. Unfortunately, it still hasn't progressed



Exactly, the dog started chasing its tail on the 2nd page. I did the think the iconic guitar discussion was interesting however.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:46 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by dannyalcatraz
As somewhat of a geezer myself, I always thought of Led Zep to be about as heavy hard rock could get without being heavy metal, with Deep Purple straddling the line, and Black Sabbath as being truly the first heavy metal band.

My $0.02.


well actually i think you'll find that Blue Cheer predated sabbath and their first album is still pretty heavy even by todays standards. a nod can be given to the MC5 as well. as for zep and purple well even back in the day there were those who debated whether they were or not.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:39 PM   #77
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:41 PM   #78
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:42 PM   #79
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:45 PM   #80
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While Blue Cheer does predate Zep, DP & Sab, I put them on the Zep side of the line: heavy, but not metal.

As for:

Quote:
No, they are technically metal.


Linguistically, people usually use modifiers like "technically" to classify something as just barely qualifying for the classification that follows.

But, IMHO, a band like Sab that is a cornerstone of the genre as a whole cannot be marginalized with such rhetorical tricks. They ARE metal, no "technically" qualifier required.

(For the logicians out there, they would lie near the center of the Venn Diagram circle labeled "Heavy Metal".)
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