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Old 01-16-2013, 05:12 PM   #21
z4twenny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
You should really think harder before being a giant dick to a dude that's...using the correct terminology.

Think harder about what?

In fact re-read the thread from the beginning. Errant nomenclature aside I stand by everything I said. In fact maybe you missed the back and forth where I asked someone to explain why modal mixture was used since nothing modal is occurring and the answer I got was more or less "well thats the term someone decided to use"
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:11 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z4twenny
^ I don't know who those "some people" are but they're wrong lol, its called borrowing a chord and has nothing at all to do with modes. Just like any other chord its placed where it to provide harmony to the melody.

And its obviously there to support the melody, the melody doesn't have to have a g# in it . Go back to and start over with music theory man, you missed some important stuff it sounds like.



"some people" were enough for it to be in the Wikipedia article of borrowed chords. Lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borrowed_chord


I believe that this is in D major. The E is used as a chromatic mediant to lead back to the G, which is then used to facilitate a plagal cadence with D, then it simply ends on the vi.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 白い雲
D/F# - G - Bm - E - G - D/F# - Bm - Bm

Analyzed as being in B minor:

III (1st inversion) - VI - i - IV - VI - III (1st inversion) - i - i

The main problem is that pesky IV chord. In natural minor, it would be iv. If the passage was B dorian, the VI chords would be vi diminished chords. No matter how you cut it, the passage contains mostly G naturals, and one G#. If you play this on your guitar, that G# really gives the passage power. So, what's the deal? The melodic minor ascending explanation doesn't work either, because there isn't an A# for the G# to go to in the next chord.

This is the first (and last) 8 bars of a piece called Yokan from the Evangelion (anime) soundtrack. The song's on youtube, and you can also find the sheet music with a google search, but I can't post them here. I think that E major chord sounds great, but I don't understand why. Maybe someone knowledgeable in jazz theory would know? Thanks!

Nice song, dude, I like that sort of music. Just transcribing myself.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angusman60
I believe that this is in D major. The E is used as a chromatic mediant to lead back to the G, which is then used to facilitate a plagal cadence with D, then it simply ends on the vi.


I think you might be on to something here with the chromatic mediant relationships. To my ears the progression doesn't quite feel at home in D, though. After mulling this over for a while, I had this idea, maybe you can tell me what you think?

The first 5 chords are a sequence. D/F# to G is a standard circle of fifths movement. The G to Bm is a diatonic mediant relationship (up a third). The Bminor then goes to the next step in the circle of fifths, e, but it's chromatically altered to E major, to lead back to G (a chromatic mediant relationship, as you said). Now, the sequence stops, and instead of G continuing on to C#, it goes to D/F#, which moves smoothly into Bm through common tones.

There are a couple problems here though. III6 to i isn't much of a cadence, even if the bass does move down by a 5th to the root. Also, I don't really have an explanation for why the G would go to D/F#. I like the idea of it being a plagal cadence, but the following, restful-sounding Bm chord (2 bar duration) undermines any sort of D major cadence. Maybe G is acting as a secondary subdominant of D (if that's possible)? I've only thought of chromatic mediant relationships as being a modulatory technique before, but who's to say it can't also work in a sequence as a sort of tonicization? Or, maybe I'm treating these ideas too freely..

Anyway, I'm trying to understand this through analysis, and what I'm hearing. I picked this sequence idea because it could have continued on with the same sound (to me) and ended in any key, and because I'm hearing the descending fifths as the primary harmonic motion in the first 5 chords, followed by a kind of sinking towards Bm.

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Old 01-17-2013, 12:05 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdc
Nice song, dude, I like that sort of music. Just transcribing myself.


I know, right? It's a great song. Since you like that, you might also like "The Sandy Beach of Ganbo" (also on youtube). The instrumentation isn't as nice, and there's no guitar, but it has a similar sound (and more juicy chords).

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Old 01-17-2013, 03:05 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by z4twenny
Think harder about what?

In fact re-read the thread from the beginning. Errant nomenclature aside I stand by everything I said. In fact maybe you missed the back and forth where I asked someone to explain why modal mixture was used since nothing modal is occurring and the answer I got was more or less "well thats the term someone decided to use"

You're sitting here telling a guy to "go back to basics" SOLELY because he used a term that you didn't like - a term that's featured and standard in a plethora of CPP theory books that are used at the university level.

...really?

It sounds like that hyper-reactionary knee jerk response to the word "mode" has clouded your critical thinking skills and humility.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:14 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by 白い雲
Telling me to go back to the beginning doesn't help anything. I'm the most proficient person I know in theory other thank my teachers, and I teach it too. I think you're underestimating my ability.


that's meaningless here. and, frankly, if you don't understand where a major subdominant chord comes from in a minor key, i'm not convinced of your "proficiency" at all. that's not even a knock, just a completely objective observation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angusman60
"some people" were enough for it to be in the Wikipedia article of borrowed chords. Lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borrowed_chord


brb while i go edit the martin luther king page to say that he was struck and killed on april 4, 1968 by an errant burrito traveling 357 mph to establish the fact that "some people" think that this happened

an extreme example, perhaps, but the point still stands - anybody can edit wikipedia. if i went there right now and edited out all of the instances of the word "mode mixture", it would go largely unnoticed.

i'll second 20T's post again because it deals with precisely why it's called "mode mixture". what we know as major and minor are modes.

how we use them, however, is a very different story.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 白い雲
I think you might be on to something here with the chromatic mediant relationships. To my ears the progression doesn't quite feel at home in D, though. After mulling this over for a while, I had this idea, maybe you can tell me what you think?

The first 5 chords are a sequence. D/F# to G is a standard circle of fifths movement. The G to Bm is a diatonic mediant relationship (up a third). The Bminor then goes to the next step in the circle of fifths, e, but it's chromatically altered to E major, to lead back to G (a chromatic mediant relationship, as you said). Now, the sequence stops, and instead of G continuing on to C#, it goes to D/F#, which moves smoothly into Bm through common tones.

There are a couple problems here though. III6 to i isn't much of a cadence, even if the bass does move down by a 5th to the root. Also, I don't really have an explanation for why the G would go to D/F#. I like the idea of it being a plagal cadence, but the following, restful-sounding Bm chord (2 bar duration) undermines any sort of D major cadence. Maybe G is acting as a secondary subdominant of D (if that's possible)? I've only thought of chromatic mediant relationships as being a modulatory technique before, but who's to say it can't also work in a sequence as a sort of tonicization? Or, maybe I'm treating these ideas too freely..

Anyway, I'm trying to understand this through analysis, and what I'm hearing. I picked this sequence idea because it could have continued on with the same sound (to me) and ended in any key, and because I'm hearing the descending fifths as the primary harmonic motion in the first 5 chords, followed by a kind of sinking towards Bm.


I think you are on to something, too. But I have the same problems you do. Are there any other chord changes after the Bm? If there are, we could determine whether the progression is modulatory or not.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
that's meaningless here. and, frankly, if you don't understand where a major subdominant chord comes from in a minor key, i'm not convinced of your "proficiency" at all. that's not even a knock, just a completely objective observation.



brb while i go edit the martin luther king page to say that he was struck and killed on april 4, 1968 by an errant burrito traveling 357 mph to establish the fact that "some people" think that this happened

an extreme example, perhaps, but the point still stands - anybody can edit wikipedia. if i went there right now and edited out all of the instances of the word "mode mixture", it would go largely unnoticed.

i'll second 20T's post again because it deals with precisely why it's called "mode mixture". what we know as major and minor are modes.

how we use them, however, is a very different story.

...what does it matter that you can erroneously edit a wiki article?
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:13 PM   #30
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^^ That'll open a can of worms.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:19 PM   #31
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Google "mode mixture", or find a digital copy of a some university level theory books...Read tonal harmony by Kostka & Payne...

And wikipedia is surprisingly reliable and accurate on almost all music theory related subjects.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:40 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Google "mode mixture", or find a digital copy of a some university level theory books...Read tonal harmony by Kostka & Payne...

And wikipedia is surprisingly reliable and accurate on almost all music theory related subjects.

YES! Thank you for using a source.
I think we should start demanding everybody cites a source when outright calling someone wrong.
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:01 PM   #33
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:10 PM   #34
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Shrimp sauce? A1 Sauce? Or do you simply wish to get saucy?
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:48 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
...what does it matter that you can erroneously edit a wiki article?


come on, i know you're intelligent enough to see the obvious glaring relevance here. don't make yourself look bad.
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:07 PM   #36
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I must be dumb then, because I don't get it.
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:59 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
frankly, if you don't understand where a major subdominant chord comes from in a minor key, i'm not convinced of your "proficiency" at all. that's not even a knock, just a completely objective observation.


Well, whatever. Ultimately, I don't really care about who's proficient and who isn't. If you have an explanation for this progression though, please enlighten me.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:19 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angusman60
Are there any other chord changes after the Bm? If there are, we could determine whether the progression is modulatory or not.


Yeah, after the Bm, there's a double bar line, and a new section starts, with these chords (1 bar duration for each):

GM9-G-F#m7-Bm9
GM9-F#m7-A/B-B9
Em9-F#m9-GM9-C9
Bm9-A6-Em9-G/A

After this there's another double bar line, and a third section:

DM7-D9-GM9-Gm6
F#m7-Bm7-Em7-G/A
DM7-D9-GM9-Gm6

2 chords per bar:
F#m7-Bm7-Em7-G/A

1 chord per bar:
G/A

That's the end of this section (double bar line), which is followed by:

2 bars per chord:

DM7-FM7-DM9-FM7 (Double bar line)

Then it's back to the second section (first one I have chords for on this reply), third section, and it's all wrapped up with the 8 chords I posted at the start of the thread.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:55 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by 白い雲
Well, whatever. Ultimately, I don't really care about who's proficient and who isn't. If you have an explanation for this progression though, please enlighten me.


if you don't care, then don't bring up the fact that you're the most proficient person you know. it's meaningless here and makes you seem like you think you're the shit (which is also meaningless here).

explanations have been presented. you have your borrowed chord theory and your chromatic mediant theory. both can effectively describe a IV in this case. you can also think of it as a chromatic alteration. i personally wouldn't in this example, but there's no valid reason why you couldn't analyze it as such. use whichever you please.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:33 AM   #40
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Hey guys, I posted this over at jazzguitar.be (great forum!), and I think I've gotten an explanation that makes the most sense. The Bm chord is a common chord between D major/B minor and A major. Bm to E would be a ii-V progression in A major. There isn't a resolution to A, but that doesn't really matter, if you look at this from a jazz theory standpoint. ii-V-I and even ii-V progressions are so common that the ear accepts them without the I. So, it's a short tonicization of A. Here's an example of unresolved ii-V progressions in jazz:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2cr6n15.png
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