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Old 01-16-2013, 05:56 PM   #21
macashmack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
all maj/min scales are the same if they dont have the extra stuff , just moved up or down depending on note


well yes, but you shouldn't learn keys like that.
E major - key signature 4 sharps: E F# G# A B C# D#
Eb Major - key signature 3 flats: Eb F G Ab Bb C D
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:33 PM   #22
ch1ng_chung
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Originally Posted by macashmack
well yes, but you shouldn't learn keys like that.
E major - key signature 4 sharps: E F# G# A B C# D#
Eb Major - key signature 3 flats: Eb F G Ab Bb C D


Well, from a notation prespective that would be much more useful, but I rarely use notation unless I am doing Jazz for school or Classical music like bach or paganini.

But I do know the trick for recognizing key signatures, one sharp down or one flat extra

Also, I hate it when they use notation to write pentatonic scales in a different key than the signature
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:01 PM   #23
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I never think of scales anymore. Just arpeggios and their extensions relative to the triad + 7th.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:42 PM   #24
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Could of points:

First of all, information is easier to remember if you understand it and use it.

Imagine you were trying to remember sentences in Chinese. Do you think they'd be easier to remember if you actually knew what they were saying, or if they were just a bunch of sounds? Do you think they'd be easier to remember if you were living in China, using them every day, or if you were living in a place where you didn't interact with anyone in Chinese, ever?

Do great musicians practice? I've been fortunate enough to meet a couple of world-class classical musicians, and you know what? They practice. They do drills. They run scales. Now, the level of precision that they require may mean that they have to, and a, say, cellist in a major symphony will be required to play all sorts of very complicated stuff with very little prep time, so he has to keep himself super sharp at all times.

I don't know if Clapton or Eric Johnson or any of those guys drive themselves like that. I think for a guitarist working in popular music, you don't have to as much. The music doesn't demand it. On the other hand, there are two keys about them:

First, they are using it, all the time. They may not be "practicing" with drills, but they are using the stuff they know regularly. They are playing every day. Second, they learned it in a context where they understood it. So there's that.

Have you ever seen a baseball player, coming back from an injury, struggle with a grounder? He's taken tens of thousands of them over his career, but he hasn't taken any in the last week, and it shows. You've got to use it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephaphil
I think he means the Harmonic Minor. Emphasize?



Yeah, I meant Harmonic Minor.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:11 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Dayn
How did you learn them, and how do you apply them? When I play the major scale on my guitar, I don't think boxes. I think 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, the scale degrees. I know what patterns the unison, minor and major second, minor and major third, perfect fourth, tritone, perfect fifth, minor and major sixth, minor and major seventh, and the octave all take. If you give me a set of scale degrees, I can play that scale perfectly the first time anywhere on the neck in any key.

I would say to learn different ways to play each interval. I'd say learn them in this order: 1, 8, 5, 4; then 3, 7 and 6; then b3, b7 and b6. And b5. Once you learn the major scale as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, you'll know lydian dominant will be 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 and can play it instantly; you just alter a few notes of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. And so on and so forth for any scale you can think of. 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 for minor, 1 b3 4 5 b7 for minor pentatonic, 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 for phrygian, et cetera...


This

And then apply it. If you're just sitting there running through scales over and over again, you're really just wasting your time.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
all maj/min scales are the same if they dont have the extra stuff , just moved up or down depending on note


...lol
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:04 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
Harmonic? Is that the version when you use a major but use a sharp five and emphasize the six, like a different version of a minor? The YJM scale?

The Harmonic Minor is the Natural Minor scale with a sharpened 7th to give a stronger resolution to the tonic. If you play the 7th note of the C Major scale (B), you'll notice that it has a strong pull to the 1st note (C). If you play B and then C, it will be a satisfying sound. Now we don't have B in diatonic C Minor, we have Bb, and that doesn't have quite as strong of a pull to C; however, if you sharpen it by a half-step and make it into B you'll find that we have a strong movement to the 1st note again. This note a half-step behind the tonic is called the "leading tone", because it leads you into the tonic. The scale is Harmonic Minor because it has more effective harmony than Natural Minor, due to the presence of a leading tone and therefore the possibility for stronger resolutions.

Harmonic Minor is not the Yngwie Malmsteen scale. For the love of god, never say that again.

Last edited by TheHydra : 01-17-2013 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:28 AM   #29
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Modes are not as important as you think. Don't worry about memorizing them.

By all means learn them, but you don't need to be able to play them on an intuitive level.

However, you should learn and use the major/minor scales exhaustively, in as many different contexts, rhythms, keys, etc. so that you can use it on an intuitive level. Any practical use for modes in tonal music is far outweighed by the major scale and a solid understanding of harmony.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:05 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
But this info is useful, because now I understand the chord relations between scales and the chords, like a Dorian is a minor seven, and a Lydian is the jet plane chord, and that Diminished and Lydian work really well with each other

I have no idea how to apply this information though, unless it's within the realm of:
  1. writing music
  2. adding something extra to your improv
  3. playing jazz or you hear something that sounds like the mode

How else can I apply this info? And what about those people who pride themselves over you because they can play a "major 7th add 10, minor third, plus two, imperfect 13th, over the (whatever)"?

Seriously...
Fcuk all those people that, as you say 'pride themselves over you because they can play a "major7th add 10, minor third, plus two, imperfect 13th. over the (whatever)'.

Those people don't mean shit. Worry about yourself and not what anyone else thinks and you will have much more success in life.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:48 AM   #31
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Do them every day. All 12 diatonic scales. It'll be a big deal for like a week, then it'll be like a 10 minute warm up thing.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:23 AM   #32
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I have this problem too of not remembering modes with out looking at scale charts.

The solution is to learn WHY the modes are constructed the way they are instead of HOW to play them.

I've found that this pattern reoccurs with everything in life, that learning WHY and learning HOW are two separate things where learning one does not guarantee learning the other.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:33 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by dietermoreno
I have this problem too of not remembering modes with out looking at scale charts.

The solution is to learn WHY the modes are constructed the way they are instead of HOW to play them.

I've found that this pattern reoccurs with everything in life, that learning WHY and learning HOW are two separate things where learning one does not guarantee learning the other.

It's only that way round though, the learning WHY (and it's close friend what) will usually enable you to understand the HOW far more easily.

The problem is when you try to learn the "how" without first knowing "why" and "what", which is nigh on impossible - becasue you can't ever learn how to do something if you don't first know what that "something "is.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:55 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
So, I'm gonna get right to the meat of it. Been playing 2 and a half years, this summer I just learned all the modes and could play them off the top of my head, in my sleep, and could "see" all the degrees of the scale and even other scales that would fit nicely in with the key and scale in my head. I could connect them semi-perfectly, and I could switch different modes of different keys and make it sound really nice. And that's after 2 weeks of practice, before which I completely disregarded modes as dangerous Jazz territory.

Today, I felt like improv with modes, so I tried, but I found out that I didn't even remember the modes. I had to spend freaking 3 hours re-learning how to "see" the modes, the corresponding scales, and the degrees, and so far all I have down is playing the right mode shapes and seeing some degrees. Something is clearly wrong here. People should not forget stuff this easily, especially not guitar, and I should not have to sit down and revise my information every damn day just to remember what the hell a mode is.

Look at those people, Eric Johnson, Guthrie Govan, Malmsteen, Friedman, Becker, when's the last time any one of them seriously sat down and played through the modes...

"Alright EJ, you got this, alright, you gotta play through this, alright here we go! An Ionian, Dorian! Phagarian! Lydian! Mixolocrian! Aeolian! Locrain!"

In fact, when's the damn last time ANY one of them even practiced a scale? Johnson doesn't ever practice scales; I can tell from his playing, and Govan doesn't even need to practice scales, he somehow has managed to memorize every note on the fretboard in his head and play it. I have no idea how Friedman remembers all his weird Egyptian scales, but it's obviously not through repetitive repetition because he's a pro.

Now that I've discounted practicing the modes over and over as a method for the weak willed, how the hell do you memorize these modes? It took me a whole f**king 2 weeks to learn this, and I forget it when the season changes? Ridiculous.

You memorize scales by SOUND. That's it.

Loop a single chord vamp, and play the scale over it. Make melodies with the scale, don't just run up and down it.

Eventually, you won't need the shapes, because you will know what the note will sound like before you fret it.

Use the shapes to train your ear first, then in time, your ear will take over and shapes will be forgotten.

Playing laterally, rather than vertically always helps too. It breaks you out of boxes.

Last edited by mdc : 01-17-2013 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:01 PM   #35
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Personally, I never bothered to actively memorize a scale. The few I know, that I know well, I know because I've been using them for a damn long time. It's like anything else; use it enough and it becomes automatic. Did you have to memorize how to finger an open A chord, or did you just practice it until you didn't have to think about it?
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:04 PM   #36
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i think this thread just gave me diarrhea
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:11 PM   #37
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Me too. But it's ok, I'm in a stable condition, it just gave me the right trots, and had to hoof it up the stairs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21059623
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:42 PM   #38
ch1ng_chung
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Originally Posted by mdc
Me too. But it's ok, I'm in a stable condition, it just gave me the right trots, and had to hoof it up the stairs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21059623


thats nothing to horse around about you silly willy filly, you might offend someone and stirrup some trouble
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:02 PM   #39
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Yes i am deeply offended mdc, if that IS your real NAME!
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:16 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
thats nothing to horse around about you silly willy filly, you might offend someone and stirrup some trouble

Naaaaayyy I won't.
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