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Old 01-17-2013, 11:52 PM   #21
AeolianWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angusman60
It actually does consider that. But, that isn't what I was addressing. I was addressing how to alter the scale to fit a certain chord. Of course if you are playing a tune in Bb, you will use all modes with Bb.


if you think your approach considers what we're discussing, PROVE IT. saying "it actually does, but that's not the point" does nothing for us and only makes your arguments and concepts look weaker. prove to me that your chord-scale method takes all the elements of the bigger picture into account.

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Originally Posted by Angusman60
Also, in jazz music, at times, function is thrown out the window. For instance, in many, many cases, a dominant chord is used as a tonic.


still a function. there's much you're still not considering.

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Your accusations are simply putting words in my mouth.


at least somebody is.
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:43 AM   #22
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Everything in this post will be relevant to the key of C major.

When improvising over changes in this key, obviously, you would use the C major scale or C major pentatonic.

If, for instance, you are playing a twelve bar blues form, when coming upon a IV chord, you would center your licks around F, or use the Lydian mode. Yes, you are using the same notes, but, using this mode allows for tonicization of the IV chord and makes the chord change more apparent within your solo. Think of it as being able to tell that a player has changed chords even without chords underneath him.

Obviously this applies to V as well. But what if the V is altered with a b9? In this case, you would use Mixolydian(b2)(b6). Now, this mode can also be called Phrygian Dominant since it is Phrygian mode with a major 3rd and serves a dominant function. It is also derived from the 5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale.

C Db E F G Ab Bb C

So, as you can see. This mode has a dominant function, yet it can be called Phrygian. Simply a name to call this cluster of notes.

Another example. Cmaj7(#11). This is often used as a tonic chord in jazz pieces. While you could say Ionian(#4), it is just easier to say "Use Lydian".

A third example. Lydian Dominant. Often used over V(#11) chords. Lydian mode with a lowered 7th.

What else do you want me to prove?
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:18 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angusman60
Everything in this post will be relevant to the key of C major.

When improvising over changes in this key, obviously, you would use the C major scale or C major pentatonic.


Or? It's the same thing.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angusman60
Everything in this post will be relevant to the key of C major.

When improvising over changes in this key, obviously, you would use the C major scale or C major pentatonic.

If, for instance, you are playing a twelve bar blues form, when coming upon a IV chord, you would center your licks around F (1), or use the Lydian mode. Yes, you are using the same notes, but, using this mode allows for tonicization of the IV chord and makes the chord change more apparent within your solo (2). Think of it as being able to tell that a player has changed chords even without chords underneath him.

Obviously this applies to V as well. But what if the V is altered with a b9? In this case, you would use Mixolydian(b2)(b6) (3). Now, this mode can also be called Phrygian Dominant since it is Phrygian mode with a major 3rd and serves a dominant function. It is also derived from the 5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale.

C Db E F G Ab Bb C

So, as you can see. This mode has a dominant function (3), yet it can be called Phrygian. Simply a name to call this cluster of notes.

Another example. Cmaj7(#11). This is often used as a tonic chord in jazz pieces. While you could say Ionian(#4), it is just easier to say "Use Lydian".

A third example. Lydian Dominant. Often used over V(#11) chords. Lydian mode with a lowered 7th.

What else do you want me to prove?



1) You could, not you will or you should. Playing on or around chord roots may as well be the most basic form of vertical (as opposed to melody-centric, horizontal, voice-led) improvisation available. In a harsh lean, it can be seen as a crutch, since if you play the root of a note, you really have to put in work to make it sound bad in its context.


2) You wouldn't use Lydian to tonicize F: you'd use a C7 chord followed by F and whatever notes suit your fancy. Drop that Bb in there anywhere you like, and the closest you'll get to a 'modal' description of what's happening would be, if anything, Mixolydian, but even then, that's degrading C major.


3) Or you could use G , B, and D, plus any other notes your ear finds which it likes over the chord. Again, hugging the basic triad in play is a limiting concept which sacrifices creating a melody to creating a case-by-case harmony which doesn't stretch the tension of the sound too far on the chord, with such a harmonic sanctity as the only organizing principle of that approach. In a brief sense, I don't hear you play the b9 of the chord underneath your melody and say to myself, "Oh, hey that's a nice b9 he just hit! He's playing chord tones! " Instead, I'm more interested in the melody you are playing, not the chords under it; my brain does the work on how the melody relates to the chords, but my mind stays prim and proper absorbing the melody.



An aside: correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't blues take a lot of stock in using a minor third over a major chord? I mean, that sorta breaks the whole frame right there, if it is in fact correct... o.o





*tempted to whip out Hal Galper on "Let the melody be your guide."*
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:23 AM   #25
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Anyway i think i see the problem here.

I too use the modal approach to soloing but I also see how it's not useful.

example:

Your approach deals with extended and altered chords as they appear.

You see this "G7b9" and you play G mixo(flat2)
-----

ok fine.

The problem is that lead sheets don't come with extended and altered chords. That's up to you to decide.

In a jazz band, during solo's, non-soloist are playing un-altered and sometimes basic chords leaving the soloist to play those color tones during his solo.

Also, the modal approach works well when you HAVE to solo over altered chords. When there's money on the table you better damn well play what they want and play those altered scales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angusman60

If, for instance, you are playing a twelve bar blues form, when coming upon a IV chord, you would center your licks around F, or use the Lydian mode. Yes, you are using the same notes, but, using this mode allows for tonicization of the IV chord and makes the chord change more apparent within your solo. Think of it as being able to tell that a player has changed chords even without chords underneath him.


Why go chord by chord when you can just group the chords into a progression and play the scale the progression is based off.

You wanna make the chord change more apparent? Then play chord tones. This isn't a good enough reason to use a modal approach.

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Originally Posted by Angusman60
Obviously this applies to V as well. But what if the V is altered with a b9? In this case, you would use Mixolydian(b2)(b6).


This is a valid enough reason to use the modal approach, but...

In a jazz band, during solo's, non-soloist are playing un-altered and sometimes basic chords leaving the soloist to play those color tones during his solo.

I use the modal approach for solo guitar work. When i know what chord i want or what chord i want to be implying with my line.

Tonal Approach:

"OK, G7b9, that's C major with an Ab. Now this G7b9b13 is C major with an Ab and an Eb"

Or...

Modal Approach:

"OK, G7b9 then G7b9b13, use Gmixo(2b) and Gmixo(2b 6b)

It's just two methods that lead to the same thing, but the tonal approach does give you a bit more information, unless you know all the modes in every key by heart... which i doubt.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:25 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Angusman60
I agree that it is rather inefficient, which is why I am trying to stress that is only useful insofar as learning scale patterns.


do we really need to go into why scale patterns are gonna be a bad time?
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:03 AM   #27
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TS, you ever heard of chord tones and arpeggios? You clearly listen to a lot of jazz.

Your modal approach to jazz improvisation is more suited to modal jazz, funnily enough. Not bop.

Go listen to some Bird or Herb Ellis, ya know?

I don't know what kind of jazz classes you've been taking, but if they don't emphasize the importance of chord tone soloing then, well, might wanna reconsider your teachers.

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Old 01-18-2013, 10:50 AM   #28
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When I studied jazz they did emphasize chord tones when solo. I use chord tones all the time when improvising. But, I'm talking about modes, not arpeggios, in this case.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:11 AM   #29
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So you prefer the chord scale approach?
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:35 AM   #30
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Not always. But, when you have a modulatory progression, like Black Narcissus, the method comes in quite handy.

http://www.guitarcats.com/realbook-...black-narcissus
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:12 PM   #31
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So what would you use for the first 16 bars, and the last 8 bars?
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:43 PM   #32
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For the first 8 I would use Ab Dorian, since the Abm7 to D7 progression is a ii - V doing directly to Gbm7. From there, you could use minor, Dorian, or Phrygian. The final 8 bars have a faster harmonic motion, so, you would need to change modes each chord. Obviously, Lydian for the (#4) chords.

When playing over one of the dominant chords I would probably switch it up and use Phrygian Dominant, especially towards the end of a phrase. Since PD is derived from harmonic minor, it has leading tones that help pull the melodic line through the cadence.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:02 PM   #33
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You must be white. Only a white person would play phrygian dominant over a dom7.

The issue with the scale per chord approach is that it just encourages, disjunct, awkward lines. The amount of energy you'd have to invest to seamlessly intertwine 12 different scales into 12 bars of music, in one cohesive area of the fretboard is outrageous. If you just think in terms of the chords, and use common jazz soloing conventions like half step approaches...then you'd have a much easier time playing, conceptualizing, and organizing your lines.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:48 PM   #34
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You are absolutely correct. This method is academic and sometimes cumbersome. It is the way people learn jazz in the university environment. Nonetheless, it is a utilization on modes, which, is the original reason for starting this thread.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:53 PM   #35
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I don't know if you've noticed yet, but there's a stigma attached to the word "mode" on this board. Like, I swear, there must be some mass notification that alerts Aeolian_Wolf, Hail, MDC, jazz_rock_theory, and AlanHB anytime the word "mode" is used in the Musician Talk subforum.

As much as I think the term is largely irrelevant in most instances, I don't harbor the same hatred for it. However, I do think it's totally counterproductive and unhelpful to frame or explain the relevance on modes in the CST arena. It's just not helpful to the people it's directed at (guitar noobs), and is just a really convoluted way of explaining "think about the chord tones, and study jazz to understand how and why chromaticism is used in relation to those chord tones".
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:58 PM   #36
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Indeed. I think this topic has gone way above this forum's understanding.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
I don't know if you've noticed yet, but there's a stigma attached to the word "mode" on this board. Like, I swear, there must be some mass notification that alerts Aeolian_Wolf, Hail, MDC, jazz_rock_theory, and AlanHB anytime the word "mode" is used in the Musician Talk subforum.

I resent that. I rarely contribute to modes threads other than posting a snappy gif

Also I have almost no problem with modes, just the misunderstanding of them. It's almost impossible to attempt to teach someone or have a discussion about modes without the crosstalk of whether they exist or not, which is the farthest thing from being helpful, so I just choose to say nothing.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:15 PM   #38
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Indeed. I think this topic has gone way above this forum's understanding.

Then perhaps help them understand by composing a chart with workable examples and possible variations. That might do the trick - share the knowledge instead of thinking its above someones paygrade. Just my 2 cents.

*edit* After all, the thread title did say practical (x) application

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Old 01-18-2013, 05:20 PM   #39
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Part of the problem is that music theory is nearly impossible to speak of in an online forum. Not to mention there is not easy way to post notation to illustrate one's point.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:27 PM   #40
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Part of the problem is that music theory is nearly impossible to speak of in an online forum. Not to mention there is not easy way to post notation to illustrate one's point.

Nearly impossible? This section of the forum blatantly advertises the use of theory. Theory books are in print format, so they use typed words. This forum seems to use the same format

Sibelius/Finale --> screen shot - ctrl v --> Paint/Photoshop --> Photobucket/Boxnet/any other service --> link in thread + typed text

*edit* And if we're really lucky:
Guitar --> Cubase/Sonar/ProTools/Other shit -->mp3 --> Boxnet/soundcloud --> link in thread accompanying said text

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