Hail

just read through some bits:

yngwie malmsteen...doesn't know theory?

you do know that theory comes with an understanding of music? which comes with, yknow, just playing music? no scales, no modes.

i mean malmsteen's an idiot and a terrible songwriter, but he has perfect pitch IIRC and can perform on several instruments proficiently (albeit tastelessly)

like i'm starting to lean towards instrumental genocide because of threads like these, seriously. like, office-place-shootout type stuff.

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martmiguel

Its very simple really:

Theres a difference between A# and Bb?

Not really, if you play them on the piano o someone who is not watching he will tell you that they sound the same, this happens because it is the same scale on both situations, it´s just an orthographic issue.

Now when we talk about the circle of 4 and fifths we are talking about a way to organize the scales depending on the number of accidentals each one has, if you use fourths you will find flat, and if you use fifths you will find sharps:

Fourths:
C 0 flats
F 1 flats
Bb 2 flats
Eb 3 flats
Ab 4 flats
Db 5 flats
Gb 6 flats
Cb 7 flats

Fifths:
C 0 sharps
G 1 sharps
D 2 sharps
A 3 sharps
E 4 sharps
B 5 sharps
F# 6 sharps
C# 7 sharps

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Miguel Martinez is a professional musician from Bogota Colombia.

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steven seagull

don't worry, I always move them as soon as I can

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白い雲

Let me see if I can break it down some. The circle of fifths is not a scale. It's a way of organizing the 12 notes of the chromatic scale, the 12 major keys, or the 12 minor keys. The circle of fourths is just the circle of fifths being followed counterclockwise. You'll have to read more to understand these concepts, but my main point here is that the circle of fifths and the circle of fourths are not scales.

An A# scale and a Bb scale of the same type (major scale, etc.) will sound identical to the listener, but look different on a sheet of music. This is an example of enharmonic notes. Enharmonic notes sound the same, but are spelled differently. The musical alphabet has these redundancies built in because they help us understand things like the major scale easier. After all, which is easier to read: C-D-E-F-G-A-B, or B#-C##-D##-E#-F##-G##-A##? They're the same pitches.

I think your confusion is in knowing where these sharps or flats occur. A sharp tells you to raise the note by a 1/2 step. So, A# is one half step above A. A flat tells you to lower the note by 1/2 step. So, Ab is one half step lower than A. Most natural (not sharp or flat) notes are 2 half steps away from the next note. For example, A is two half steps below B. To name the note in between A and B, you can call it A#, or Bb. This is a pretty straightforward system, but it's not that simple. B natural is only ONE half step away from C natural. Likewise, E natural is only one half step away from F natural. So, the note one half step above E can bel called F. But, as I said earlier, putting a sharp by a note name tells you to raise it a half step. So, the note one half step above E can also be called E#. E# and F are the same pitch. To be clear: Because there is only one half step between E and F, and only one half step between B and C, the use of half steps in a scale does not necessarily require sharps and flats.

When you spell out a major or minor scale, you're dealing with 7 notes. If you've ever wondered why the musical alphabet stops after 7 letters, this is why. The alphabet was designed to cater to major and minor scales. When you name a major or minor scale, you can only use each letter in the alphabet once. You have to use the sharp and flat signs to get the notes to the right pitches from there. For example, if you want to spell an F major scale, you know it has to start on F, and (because of the rule I just told you) you know it has to have some kind of f, g, a, b, c, d, and e note (flat, natural, or sharp). The F major scale happens to be F, G, A, Bflat, C, D, and E. As you can see, you have one of each of the letter names, but no duplicates, and they are in alphabetical order starting on F.

You mentioned the major scale interval pattern of w-w-h-w-w-w-h, but were confused as to how C major (which contains no sharps or flats) could follow this pattern. The reason is the same as in bold above. If you spell out the scale, keeping in mind that b to c is only a half step, and e to f is only a half step, you'll see that it works:

C (whole step) D (whole step) E (half step) F (whole step) G (whole step) A (whole step) B (half step) C.

The w-w-h-w-w-w-h applies to every single major scale, period. It could be a Z double flat major scale, and it would still follow this pattern!

So...

Music theory is a lot like math. It starts with basic arithmetic (adding, subtraction), and subsequent concepts all build upon those basics. It's very hard to learn an interesting bit of music theory (such as modes) by itself, like you would a guitar lick. For you, I recommend getting a theory teacher to help you get really solid on the basics. The college level courses are good for this, but in leau of that, you may be able to find a private teacher (or skype teacher). If you can't do that, get a music theory textbook. It'll break everything down, start with the basics, and only move on to more complex topics after that. I use the Kostka and Payne "Tonal Harmony" book, and there are other good ones out there. Rock on

Drew-A

rockingamer2

It's great that you do redirect them, don't get me wrong, but mods can only work so fast. Not saying anything about you, though. I just want to see if I can snipe some of them before the go down the rabbit hole.

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Junior#1

Go home troll. You're drunk.

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Destinyrider22

Truer words have never been spoken. I saw a quote somewhere that said "You do not truly understand music theory until you have been completely baffled by it." The Tonal Harmony book is a college level textbook, but explains everything in nearly a paragraph or 2. Although the book is simple enough to understand, it helps even further to take a class and have a teacher to whom you can pester with questions if you do not understand what you are reading. Probably what has helped me the most was taking a class that I could take with others, and the homework assignments almost always turn into group assignments with friends. A class will help you more than anything, although musictheory.net and its respective app Tenuto are the greatest free resources know to those on two legs (I think you have to pay for the app but the site is free).

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:-D

erroneous

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Junior#1

.......right.

Seriously, if you're not going to offer any advice or relevent information pertaining of the original post, then don't post.

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:-D

*relevant

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Junior#1

F***ing spelling Nazi.

I'm done feeding the troll. I won't be replying to you again. At least not in this thread.

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AeolianWolf

technically it would also be pertaining to, not pertaining of.

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dietermoreno

Thanks guys for all the responses!

So the circle of fifths and circle of fourths are not actual physical musical concrete objects, but are neumatic devices for memorizing how many sharps or flats a major scale has.

So the difference between a sharp and a flat scale to the ears is none, but it is notated differently because of "enharmonic notes".

So the reason that the C major scale still works with the "w-w-h-w-w-w-h-w" steps pattern is that not all letters in the musical alphabet are separted by the same interval of step.

E to F# is a major second made up of 2 half steps, meaning that only one half step separates E and F. C to D is also a major second, meaning that one whole step separates C and D.


E to G# is a major third made up of 3 half steps, meaning that 3 /5 half step separates E and E#, because:


Letter: E E# F F# G G#
Sharps from E: 0 1 2 3 4 5
Half steps from E: 0 3

(Half Steps from note/ Sharps from note) = half steps/sharp

(3 Half Steps from E/ 5 Sharps from E) = (3/5) half steps / sharp

mdc

That's an augmented unison.

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Sweet

白い雲

"So the circle of fifths and circle of fourths are not actual physical musical concrete objects, but are neumatic devices for memorizing how many sharps or flats a major scale has."

That's one use of the circle of fifths, and it has other uses.

"So the difference between a sharp and a flat scale to the ears is none, but it is notated differently because of "enharmonic notes"."

Correct.

"So the reason that the C major scale still works with the "w-w-h-w-w-w-h-w" steps pattern is that not all letters in the musical alphabet are separted by the same interval of step."

Other than a typo (I think you meant w-w-h-w-w-w-h), that's correct.

"E to F# is a major second made up of 2 half steps, meaning that only one half step separates E and F. C to D is also a major second, meaning that one whole step separates C and D."

Correct.

"E to G# is a major third made up of 3 half steps, meaning that 3 /5 half step separates E and E#, because:


Letter: E E# F F# G G#
Sharps from E: 0 1 2 3 4 5
Half steps from E: 0 3"

4 half steps separate E and G#, not E and E#. That was probably another typo, right?

mdc

4 half steps.

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Sweet

Drew-A

A couple of mistakes in there, but I think you're getting it!

You obviously want to understand these concepts, and it sounds like you're working at it - it will all make sense very soon!

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Drew A - Rock Guitar Instrumentals