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Old 01-22-2013, 07:17 AM   #21
ChemicalFire
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Sorry that it clashes with what you believe to be true.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:24 AM   #22
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Has nothing to do with that. I just really can't stand when people dispense advice that seems to come from something they read rather than real world application and execution.

Take that how you will.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:59 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Has nothing to do with that. I just really can't stand when people dispense advice that seems to come from something they read rather than real world application and execution.

Take that how you will.

So you believe that everyone is in a perfect stereo environment? please, anyone who's heard a loud noise will never be in a perfect stereo environment because minor hearing damage will have made their ears hear differently to each other.
I'm not saying you should always do full LCR panning on everything, I have found use for 70% or 50% depending on the mix but subtle panning is definitely not going to be noticed by 99% of the audience who hears it and will likely make things more complex for your mixing so it is really not worth the trouble.
As for sounding wide there is no argument, LCR panning is as wide as something will get. Think about it for a second, you can't get a further spread than full left and full right so no matter what trickery you use hard left/right will produce the widest sound, whether you want that is up to you, but it will produce the widest sound.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:01 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
Has nothing to do with that. I just really can't stand when people dispense advice that seems to come from something they read rather than real world application and execution.

Take that how you will.


I've been doing all my mixes in LCR for a while now. Not complete LCR. I tend to be a bit more subtle with my drums. But everything else, LCR.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:04 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
I've been doing all my mixes in LCR for a while now. Not complete LCR. I tend to be a bit more subtle with my drums. But everything else, LCR.

I just tried a very quick mix in LCR and it works quite nicely for meat-and-potatoes modern rock. There's a lot of places where it wouldn't be that effective, but the technique has merit.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:11 AM   #26
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I can see the application for LCR in some areas, especially guitars (although in dual-guitar leads or duel-style solos I pan more around 50%), I find that doing so for drums like toms or vocals doesn't lead me to results I like. I always feel like when I have vocals coming out from hard left or right, they feel detached from the rest of the vocals and seem more like an effect than an actual vocal part, same with the toms. But I always do rhythm guitar hard left and right.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:26 AM   #27
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Toms have always been an interesting one for me. I usually pan them based on how big the fills are. I had an old drummer that used to have 7 toms and do huge 80's Hair Metal fills. We'd usually pan the high toms left, middle toms center & low toms right with some automation to center it up if its song ending fills. In a stereo environment, it feels like there's a drumkit sitting in front of you. It still sounded pretty decent in headphones as well.

Lead Vocals rarely stray from center for me. In most modern music (if not all), Vocals are the main focus of the song. If they aren't center, they aren't going to be as full as they can be.
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:24 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by chatterbox272
So you believe that everyone is in a perfect stereo environment? please, anyone who's heard a loud noise will never be in a perfect stereo environment because minor hearing damage will have made their ears hear differently to each other.
I'm not saying you should always do full LCR panning on everything, I have found use for 70% or 50% depending on the mix but subtle panning is definitely not going to be noticed by 99% of the audience who hears it and will likely make things more complex for your mixing so it is really not worth the trouble.
As for sounding wide there is no argument, LCR panning is as wide as something will get. Think about it for a second, you can't get a further spread than full left and full right so no matter what trickery you use hard left/right will produce the widest sound, whether you want that is up to you, but it will produce the widest sound.

No, I don't think that, but can you give me your sources and accumulated research that demonstrates that 99% of people won't hear "subtle panning" - as if anything that's not L, R, or C is "subtle".

I don't think wide is what makes something "big". Big to me is more of an issue of fullness and loudness, and has to do with properly settings levels and EQing in a way that you can achieve maximum ballcrushing and still have clarity in your mix.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
I don't think wide is what makes something "big". Big to me is more of an issue of fullness and loudness, and has to do with properly settings levels and EQing in a way that you can achieve maximum ballcrushing and still have clarity in your mix.


Try mixing everything straight up the middle then start sending things hard left & hard right. You'll instantly notice your mix getting bigger.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:09 PM   #30
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Try mixing everything straight up the middle then start sending things hard left & hard right. You'll instantly notice your mix getting bigger.

That's not what I'm saying though. You're giving me the superlative corollary of what I'm saying.

My point is this: Everyone that mixes rock/metal hard pans electric guitars as a starting point for a big sound, but that in itself, isn't what's going to make it sound "big", and it's not even near the most important factor. Ya, if you ****in' center all your guitar tracks it's going to sound narrow - but that's not really the point.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:26 PM   #31
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I really don't think you're understanding lockwolf & kyle's point, chrono.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:18 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
No, I don't think that, but can you give me your sources and accumulated research that demonstrates that 99% of people won't hear "subtle panning" - as if anything that's not L, R, or C is "subtle".

umm did you completely miss the part where I said I sometimes use 50% or 70% depending on the mix? But panning 10 or 20% isn't going to be noticed in most environments.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:10 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronowarp
TMy point is this: Everyone that mixes rock/metal hard pans electric guitars as a starting point for a big sound, but that in itself, isn't what's going to make it sound "big", and it's not even near the most important factor. Ya, if you ****in' center all your guitar tracks it's going to sound narrow - but that's not really the point.


Then whats your definition of a big mix? You seem to be the only one against panning and everything thats been said. I mean, if you really want to get down to it, a big mix in my eyes comes down to:

Proper Panning
Everything EQ'd into place
Compressed so there are still dynamics & yet its loud
Analog saturation

If I'm off in what goes into a big mix, I'm going to give up :p
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:25 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by lockwolf
Then whats your definition of a big mix? You seem to be the only one against panning and everything thats been said. I mean, if you really want to get down to it, a big mix in my eyes comes down to:

Proper Panning
Everything EQ'd into place
Compressed so there are still dynamics & yet its loud
Analog saturation

If I'm off in what goes into a big mix, I'm going to give up :p

No, you're misunderstanding me.
I pan shit the exact same way - pretty much everyone hard pans guitars and stereo overheads.

but...that's a given. It's not going to make your mix sound HUGE or BIG. It's going to make it wider...but there are a plethora of more important factors that are going to actually influence how big and fat it sounds (like the other things you listed, that actually impact that).
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:46 AM   #35
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But does Wide not equal Big? I think you've missed the point entirely. Yes, proper EQing and Compression definitely play a more noticeable factor in mixing but without LCR panning (or any at all) you're going to lose half of what makes a big mix sound HUGE!
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:01 AM   #36
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But why call it LCR panning...when nothing else in the mix besides specific elements (guitar primarily) need to be panned hard to achieve that effect?
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:06 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by chronowarp
But why call it LCR panning...when nothing else in the mix besides specific elements (guitar primarily) need to be panned hard to achieve that effect?


It actually goes back to some of the original consoles. Back in the day, there were no subtle panning, it was Left, Center & Right. Thus, that is how the LCR paning we know today came about.

Besides, who said you only need to hard pan guitars. Try hard paning synths, drums, keys, single tracked guitars, and other elements. Currently, one of my largest sounding tracks I've got is a single tracked electric panned one way, an acoustic panned the opposite way and lead up the middle. Give it a shot.
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:25 AM   #38
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Yes, I understand WHY lcr WAS a thing...

But it's 2013.
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:54 AM   #39
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Because it still makes things sound the widest they possibly can?
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