Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Instruments > Guitar Techniques
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 01-22-2013, 01:19 PM   #21
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
 
Zaphod_Beeblebr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind a desk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
1) you should check out his red house

3) I'm not taking licks from a book, I'm taking them from listening to Guthrie Govan improvs on youtube and playing them back on guitar


Stop arguing and listen to what people tell you.

For what it's worth I disagree that Malmsteen's improv, at least back when he was still awesome, is that basic but really... it is in the overall scheme of things. He's really good at what he does but it's not complicated at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
I find Govan's improvisations to be inspirational, but they quickly turn from very pleasant to audibly painful after 5 minutes because they sound so repetitive


Then you're not listening closely enough

Seriously, there are two major problems with your video:

1 - Your bending and vibrato are horrible. Bending needs to aim for a specific pitch and get there; out of tune bends are one of the biggest giveaways of an amateur. Same goes for vibrato, it needs to be controlled; you need to go out to the same pitch with each repetition and go back to the original pitch between each bend.

2 - You're clearly not listening to the backing or thinking about what you're doing. Put the guitar down and step away from it for a while, put on the backing and just think about the kind of music you want to hear over it. First step to good improvisation is having a direction to go in and if you're not thinking about what you're doing in musical terms before you're thinking in guitar terms then no amount of playing or technique will help you.

Always remember: we practice so we can forget that we have practiced and that applies to all things about the instrument. If you don't understand what that means then I suggest you think on it for a while.

Finally: don't compare yourself to someone like Guthrie Govan. He's been playing guitar for probably over twice as long as you've been alive; he knows the guitar better than you know your own mother, don't worry about him.
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by steven seagull
Zaphod wins...flawless victory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepower
Another flawless victory for Zaph!




Last edited by Zaphod_Beeblebr : 01-22-2013 at 02:12 PM.
Zaphod_Beeblebr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 02:09 PM   #22
Supersonic-95
UG Member
 
Supersonic-95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
1) you should check out his red house

3) I'm not taking licks from a book, I'm taking them from listening to Guthrie Govan improvs on youtube and playing them back on guitar



I don't think you're catching onto my point. What difference does it make if you're copying from a book or pigging youtube!? The fact is, is that you've learned a melodic line of which you do not understand the relation in conjunction with the harmonic function. Here is what you need to do:

1. Learn Intervals and apply them to guitar from absolute memory
2. Learn harmonic theory of the major scale
3. Learn the CAGED system (and relate each note to the interval you're on - NEVER get into the habit of JUST learning the pattern - understand what your playing intervallicaly and how each box shape fits together)

This is quite basic, but is a fantastic foundation for what you want.

There is no such thing as a "minor scale and harmony". The only true scale is the major. Everything else is a mode.

Ionian - Major
Aeolian - Relative Minor
Phrygian - Secondary Relative Minor

These are the modes which relate to the root the most. Phrygian is the second relative minor due to the root of the root not being included. So phrygian is the second closest relation to the major scale.

Remember, guitar technique is important, but no where near as important as theoretical knowledge. Having understanding of harmonic function and melody/harmony relationship is far more important than any guitar technique. Like anything, music is theoretical, and theory is the most important part (as well as creativity). Creativity is impossible without theoretical knowledge. So don't reply stating that creativity is more important than theory, because it isn't. You can't be creative without theory. I can't stand it where guitarists just talk about technique. Harmony is the base and heart of music - the most important part. In fact, it's epic stupidity to put harmony and instrumental technique in the same sentence, sorry, paragraph. So a good message to most guitarists would be - shut the hell up about technique - there are far better things to explore in music!

Last edited by Supersonic-95 : 01-22-2013 at 02:25 PM.
Supersonic-95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 05:20 PM   #23
Shadowofravenwo
Recent tube convert
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
Strangely, I find that my imporv improves greatly when I play over, say, a real guitarist playing a few chords, like A and Bm7 and then F#m (Root, dorian, aeolian), than when I get an internet backing track

I don't know why, has this ever happened to any of you before?


I'm not shocked your improv sounds better with backing, as it gives you a harmonic foundation and a rhythm to work with. Pull an amazing improv out of your butt with no backing? I think that would be hard for a lot of people.

As someone who uses improvisation at my job every day, let me give you some advice:

1) It takes years to develop. Even after 7.5 years on the job, I still stumble ever so often. When I do, I have developed chops to usually cover it up.
2) I've learned to work in the framework of my job. I know what the law states, what good practice is, etc. THat is what I meant by backing.
3)IT TAKES YEARS TO DEVELOP.
4) No one improvs in a vacuum. You always have experience to draw from.

A guy I jam with is pretty good at improv. He has years of playing, and can pull licks out of his head. It's stuff he's noodled with or is a take on something he has learned. He's not imroving in a vacuum.

I know shows like "Whose line is it anyways?" has made improv look easy. Those guys are amazing, but are probably pulling stuff they have experienced in the past out of their heads. That's what we did in drama classes. It was paraphrasing lines, using snippets of dialogue from stuff we had read, etc. It's not improving in a vacuum. Plus who knows how many skits the recorded, and then just showed the best ones for that session.

2.5 years might seem like a long time, but it's really not. Especially if you have been practicing wrong. I'm not saying you are, I'm just making a general statement.

JUst adding my two cents to improving.
__________________
Washburn MG-44(E)
Ibanez RG421 (Eb)
Art & Lutherie Electric Cutaway
Vox Valvetronix VT40
Vox AC4tv 1x10
Vox Original Wah-Wah Pedal V847-A
MXR '78 Custom Badass Distortion

Last edited by Shadowofravenwo : 01-22-2013 at 05:25 PM.
Shadowofravenwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 05:26 PM   #24
ch1ng_chung
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowofravenwo
I'm not shocked your improv sounds better with backing, as it gives you a harmonic foundation and a rhythm to work with. Pull an amazing improv out of your butt with no backing? I think that would be hard for a lot of people.

As someone who uses improvisation at my job every day, let me give you some advice:

1) It takes years to develop. Even after 7.5 years on the job, I still stumble ever so often. When I do, I have developed chops to back it up.
2) I've learned to work in the framework of my job. I know what the law states, what good practice is, etc. THat is what I meant by backing.
3)IT TAKES YEARS TO DEVELOP.
4) No one improvs in a vacuum. You always have experience to draw from.

A guy I jam with is pretty good at improv. He has years of playing, and can pull licks out of his head. It's stuff he's noodled with or is a take on something he has learned. He's not imroving in a vacuum.

I know shows like "Whose line is it anyways?" has made improv look easy. Those guys are amazing, but are probably pulling stuff they have experienced in the past out of their heads. That's what we did in drama classes. It was paraphrasing lines, using snippets of dialogue from stuff we had read, etc. It's not improving in a vacuum.

2.5 years might seem like a long time, but it's really not.

JUst adding my two cents to improving.


So when you improvise, what do you think about? I mean what is your mind doing? Because when I improvise I can either think of a good melody OR play guitar, but never both. Sometimes I hear a melody and then i can play it on guitar instantly, but I can't seem to play it the same time I hear it in my head.
ch1ng_chung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 05:32 PM   #25
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
 
Zaphod_Beeblebr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind a desk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
So when you improvise, what do you think about? I mean what is your mind doing? Because when I improvise I can either think of a good melody OR play guitar, but never both. Sometimes I hear a melody and then i can play it on guitar instantly, but I can't seem to play it the same time I hear it in my head.


You should practice to the point where you don't have to think in order to play what you think of on the guitar. That's what all this practice, technique and theory is for: once you have all this wealth of experience and knowledge the boundary between expression and guitar vanishes and you're left with the ability to play what you think of as it comes to you. That's what the true masters do; they don't think of something and play it, they just play and it sounds like they want it to because they know what they're doing will sound like before it happens.
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by steven seagull
Zaphod wins...flawless victory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepower
Another flawless victory for Zaph!



Zaphod_Beeblebr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 05:34 PM   #26
Shadowofravenwo
Recent tube convert
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
So when you improvise, what do you think about?


Honestly, not getting my ass sued! Seriously, besides that and what legal bases to I have to stand on, and can I defend this in court? in the beginning. Now? Nothing. I just go about and react to what is given to me. I'm not in an active mind role. I am practiced enough that I don't think about what I am doing anymore.

Quote:
I mean what is your mind doing?


On an unconscious level, reading and reacting. If I spend too much time thinking, I've lost my audience. Once that happens, I may have lost them for the rest of the day. That could make for a very LONG day.

Quote:
Because when I improvise I can either think of a good melody OR play guitar, but never both. Sometimes I hear a melody and then i can play it on guitar instantly, but I can't seem to play it the same time I hear it in my head.


Then you aren't at the point someone mentioned earlier, practiced to the point of forgetting about what you have practiced. Takes time man. Time and patience.

I know I'm making it sound like some sort of Jedi, Zen mind trick. It's not, it's experience and practice.
__________________
Washburn MG-44(E)
Ibanez RG421 (Eb)
Art & Lutherie Electric Cutaway
Vox Valvetronix VT40
Vox AC4tv 1x10
Vox Original Wah-Wah Pedal V847-A
MXR '78 Custom Badass Distortion

Last edited by Shadowofravenwo : 01-22-2013 at 05:36 PM.
Shadowofravenwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 06:43 PM   #27
bigblockelectra
Registered User
 
bigblockelectra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
I used to think the same way as you, but then after actually looking in to some of my favorite players....almost all of them had been playing for 10, 15, or 20 years by the time they were releasing recorded material. And that was 10-20 years of solid practice. There was no Modern Warfare or Youtube for Guthrie Govan or Mark Knopfler to get distracted by.

If you have the ability, you can catch up (to a certain extent), but it will take many hours of practice.

Last edited by bigblockelectra : 01-22-2013 at 06:44 PM.
bigblockelectra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 06:56 PM   #28
aerosmithfan95
Call me Billy.
 
aerosmithfan95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In the pipes
The guitarists you've mentioned in your post, by the time they were your age, they were playing for 10+ years. They had a lot more time to practice their chops at creating music. They, along with other guitarists, know their theoretical knowledge (yes, I can guarantee guys like Hendrix and BB King know some theory) as well as their technique. They also practiced phrasing and what worked over a certain progression and that separates the "guitar athletes" and "wannabe bluesmen" from the pros.

It takes years of practice to develop good improvisational skills. I've your age and I have 4.5 years of experience. I'm a much better improv player than I was 2 years ago, but I can still use a ton of work on shaping my skills.

Also, different people learn at different rates then you. The kid 16 year old kid that lives down the block from you may have been playing for 8 years, but his chops may be nowhere near as good as yours and vice versa. All it takes is some patience and dedication to become better at it.
__________________
AF95

Guitar --> Pedals --> Amplifier
aerosmithfan95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 08:30 PM   #29
JKHC
Registered User
 
JKHC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
I haven't read the entire thread so I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before but, to be blunt, your phrasing is horrible. Everyone starts out improvising like that so it's no big deal.

Try to come up with simple melodies and try not to just throw out a flurry of notes. Focus on one simple scale rather than combining scales or using modes first. Leave space in your playing.

Another thing to work on is your bending/vibrato.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by FEngHLyan
She will join the prom.

She insists to wear this lights.

I don't think so.

How can I persuade her?
JKHC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 08:59 PM   #30
ch1ng_chung
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
What if the melody you think of in your mind is very discordant but would sound good with the backing track?
ch1ng_chung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 09:38 PM   #31
KG6_Steven
Serving Knowledge
 
KG6_Steven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Neither here nor there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
So when you improvise, what do you think about? I mean what is your mind doing? Because when I improvise I can either think of a good melody OR play guitar, but never both. Sometimes I hear a melody and then i can play it on guitar instantly, but I can't seem to play it the same time I hear it in my head.



When I play lead with my group, I'm listening to the others for ideas, then turning those ideas into notes at my fingertips. That's one of the things you need to work on improving and it's going to take time and practice.

If I'm unable to specifically play off of something someone else is doing, then I'm thinking about what I can play that might fit the context of the song at this particular spot.

I'm really overstating the amount of thought process that goes into playing lead. If you think about it too hard, you end up making mistakes and missing opportunities. Essentially, the better you become, the easier it is. When it happens, the light bulb will illuminate.
KG6_Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 09:42 PM   #32
jontuckas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
You need to learn music theory. Learn how to tell waht key a song is in and beats.
jontuckas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 05:35 AM   #33
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
 
Zaphod_Beeblebr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind a desk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
What if the melody you think of in your mind is very discordant but would sound good with the backing track?


Then play it, the most important thing is that you take music from your head and play it rather than just letting your fingers run over ideas without thinking about what you're doing.

Watch this:

__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by steven seagull
Zaphod wins...flawless victory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepower
Another flawless victory for Zaph!



Zaphod_Beeblebr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:56 AM   #34
MultiM
Registered User
 
MultiM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
sorry but I didn't read all of the suggestions that were made but, with time, if you kept improvising over backing tracks and learning new song that you think that they will make you better or that have nice licks that you may profit from them, you will unconsciously know what notes will fit together.
+all the things that the other guys told you
MultiM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 02:10 PM   #35
InfiniStudent
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1ng_chung
So when you improvise, what do you think about? I mean what is your mind doing? Because when I improvise I can either think of a good melody OR play guitar, but never both. Sometimes I hear a melody and then i can play it on guitar instantly, but I can't seem to play it the same time I hear it in my head.

What do you think about when you speak English?? <-There's your ultimate answer.
Music is simply a language.
In the beginning when you learn a language you DO have to think about words, letters or whatever; you also tend to memorize full common phrases ("Licks") like "Good Morning!","Thank You."
After enough practice, exposure, and muscle memory a transition/shifting occurs...

You think less and less about HOW to say things (because you've already DONE this) and you just start expressing yourself based on the Vocabulary you have collected/accumulated.

Just like learning Spanish or Chinese, it really "doesn't matter" if you approach this from a theoretical standpoint OR by ear. What matters is the vocabulary that you collect (and can use at will)

Obviously, learning the theory (Grammar) of the language will give you a better mastery of it, but you can learn it "illiterately" and still be quite verbose.

Almost all of us, honestly, use a combination of both to gain our vocabulary.

In the end, you are just Singing through your guitar (hopefully from your heart).


Happy Jammin!

Last edited by InfiniStudent : 01-23-2013 at 02:17 PM.
InfiniStudent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 07:45 PM   #36
Eklips
UG's only Romanian
 
Eklips's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Improv is a matter of forming your ear. Sure, theory can help, but I think what would help more actually is listening to more music. Don't go crazy on listening stuff outside your comfort zone, just go commando on what makes your trousers go all wet.

But better yet, to put it in the words of Devin Townsend (musical genius; canadian as ****) "Just... chill out man! Smell the roses, and if the roses smell like music? Get to the studio and sit behind the beat and go DUN DUN DUN yeahhhh..."
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by adyhendrixc
Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No, but its sterile and I like the taste.
Eklips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 08:42 PM   #37
ch1ng_chung
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Then play it, the most important thing is that you take music from your head and play it rather than just letting your fingers run over ideas without thinking about what you're doing.

Watch this:



THIS has helped so much, while it's hard right now to sing and play simultaneously, I'm sure it will get very easy within a month or six
ch1ng_chung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 08:44 PM   #38
ch1ng_chung
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eklips
Don't go crazy on listening stuff outside your comfort zone, just go commando on what makes your trousers go all wet.


I find that I actually like Govan; it's the random pentatonic noodling that I can't stand
ch1ng_chung is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:27 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.