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Old 01-22-2013, 05:18 PM   #41
ChemicalFire
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Originally Posted by Steve08
Well, my views are essentially based on applying logic to music, instead of listening to something and then interpreting my emotional response to that, which is what you and just about everyone else does.


And in a way this kinda points I think to why I struggle to agree with you. Not because you're necessarily wrong, but the way your thinking is limited only to what has been and not what could be. You say Metal thus far has been about X... but why does it have to be that way? Is probably what I'm trying to get at why can't it be about z or f or q? The only answer I can ever come up with is because people on the internet don't want it to be about z or f or q. They want x and only x because that's what they like.

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Originally Posted by Steve08
then realizing that all of these very new bands (by this, I mean metalcore, and "progressive metal" which is djent... which, itself, is really just a stylistic variation of metalcore), farrrr more often than not, just do not have much in common with Heavy Metal other than timbre and some tangential aspects of songwriting. It's something which is, like, plainly obvious to those who make an effort to understand Metal's collective history, as opposed to only metal released in the past, say, 10 years, instead of the past 43 (though, of course, I don't expect you to care about Metal history as much as I do, but this conflict of perspective is more or less the issue at the crux of this debate).


Here's the thing, linking to my BMTH question as well. How do you know that any of these bands aren't imbuing their riffs with emotion and using them in the way you state when they repeat them? You've obviously got the logistics of the genre you like down solidly. But THEN you go on to talk about an emotional response to how those logical aspects are applied. One sound to one person may mean x and to the other y. So who is to say that crappy Metalcore band are infact trying to do exactly what you say they aren't but the either a) suck at it or b) they're emotional response to sounds just isn't the same as yours.

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We have what appears to be merely well-executed Demilich (a superb band who I would absolutely recommend listening to) worship, creating death metal with the intent of presenting an otherworldly atmosphere and using fairly atypical, almost exotic note choice, and yet, in Chthe'ilist, you also have a pronounced influence from doom metal and Timeghoul in the presence of slow, extended, darkly consonant passages, something never touched upon by Demilich. And as far as aesthetic relation is concerned (though this means little), there's also keyboards and virtuosic guitar solos in Chthe'ilist, which is nowhere in Demilich.

In addition to this, there is more emphasis on creating a sense of flowing direction within the individual riffs/melodic phrases before the accompaniment (drums/vocals) of those riffs also change to create an entirely new section. It's clearly music written out of a reverence for the ancient, and yet speaks with its own distinct voice, and is, of course, covered in motifs (so the parts are unified, and work towards a goal-- instead of the lack of unity being parts being the goal). One of the absolute best modern death metal bands for sure, and the best death metal release of 2012 (the average metal tourist would probably say Cattle Decapitation or Aborted instead-- an absurd notion).

Hopefully that will help put everything into perspective better.


Personally I'd find that no, it didn't. You've described one band in terms of another with some extra stuff added albeit that well executed in your opinion. It's different sure but it's not new, if I were to listen to it would I think it's something like I've never heard, or even someone with more of a Death Metal back ground? I mean there was a time before metal was, before death metal was, before black metal, before doom metal. SO why can't we have something new when it's obviously happened in the past? Why can we only create metal that is already defined in the lexicon of metal?
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:19 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire


I never claimed otherwise, but are they doing anything new?


"new" or progression is very subtle in modern metal, look at Antediluvian.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
Queensryche suck.
That's funny, you crack me up Morpho.



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Originally Posted by Nietsche
The Queensr˙che EP is one of the first power metal records. So that.



Also The Warning and Rage for Order. Things kind of went a bit, um, downhill after that, admittedly. But Geoff Tate's voice is too good for me to permit anyone laying down a universal 'QR suck' statement


Nietsche, I could literally kiss you right now. I'd also like to mention that Helloween looked directly to Geoff Tate's vocals as an example of the kind of vocals they wanted on the Keeper albums.

As for new bands, idk if it's been mentioned but give Dark Forest a try. They're pretty "true" to the NWOBHM scene.

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Old 01-22-2013, 05:42 PM   #44
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What you said about Canada made me smile and shake my head.
Anyway, it looks like this thread has run its course. It was probably my fault for opening this can of worms in the first place, so sorry about that, everyone.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:52 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Cavalcade
What you said about Canada made me smile and shake my head.
Anyway, it looks like this thread has run its course. It was probably my fault for opening this can of worms in the first place, so sorry about that, everyone.


What are you talking about? No one got huffy and bent out of shape over anything you posted, I don't think so at least. Besides, this gives a lot of people a bunch of new Metal, which, I think I'm going to post another band/album that is just simply amazing.

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Old 01-22-2013, 05:56 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Cavalcade
What you said about Canada made me smile and shake my head.
Anyway, it looks like this thread has run its course. It was probably my fault for opening this can of worms in the first place, so sorry about that, everyone.

No, man, you didn't ruin a thing.

We had some decent discussion until Supersonic-95 showed up. (Just so you know his idiocy, he made a thread asking "Why do people like Metal?" where he basically told us wonderful things of a spamming nature.)

Anyway, I'm gonna have to agree with ChemicalFire. (Sorry, Steve.)
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Why can we only create metal that is already defined in the lexicon of metal?
Basically, I've always tried to make my music both technical and emotional. (As you know, I'm just getting into recording my music.) If I worried about fitting the lexicon of Metal, I'd never even have written a damn thing.

Granted, that doesn't mean I don't go, "I want this song to have a Thrash feel" when I start off writing. But, by the end of the song, it probably has a feel that's definitely not in the lexicon of Metal. Just a personal example...
Hell, that's how we got all these different subgenres of Metal. Someone went and created something Metal, without worrying whether it fit the already defined subgenres.

Edit:
Everyone should check out the band Ocean's Garden. Their stuff is free on bandcamp. It's got a fairly progressive feel to it.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:11 PM   #47
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There shouldn't be any trouble with accepting things that aren't metal (such as music that don't bear compositional resemblance to metal) as not being metal, but there is.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:12 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
And in a way this kinda points I think to why I struggle to agree with you. Not because you're necessarily wrong, but the way your thinking is limited only to what has been and not what could be. You say Metal thus far has been about X... but why does it have to be that way? Is probably what I'm trying to get at why can't it be about z or f or q? The only answer I can ever come up with is because people on the internet don't want it to be about z or f or q. They want x and only x because that's what they like.
Because there are other kinds of music which can express messages which Metal is a bad medium for? You rarely hear any euphorically joyful Metal albums, for example, but Classical can be listened to instead. Does one genre of music has to encompass every aspect of the human condition? I personally don't think so, that's why I listen to stuff other than Metal.

That line of reasoning can be extended to question why anything is as it is, and not otherwise, though, but I mean, if you don't understand that which already exists, how would you go about making something different, yet complimentary to it? You have to know what once was to have some conception as to what can be. There are a lot of shitty black metal albums which "sound" like Darkthrone's Transilvanian Hunger but fail utterly at recapturing the sort of apocalyptic seizure displayed by that album because they think the key to creating Black Metal lies somewhere in vocals, trem picking and blast beats, but it doesn't-- it lies in melodies unfolding in a narrative way over a static, ambient beat, a definition so broad that worlds of emotion can be wrought merely from that one context. You have, for one example, the ambient material of Ildjarn, which features the same idea used to create introspective electronic music.
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
Here's the thing, linking to my BMTH question as well. How do you know that any of these bands aren't imbuing their riffs with emotion and using them in the way you state when they repeat them?
Every band comparable to BMTH that I have heard literally is based around the premise that stark contrast between each individual section creates a varied, dynamic song... so, by listening to them, essentially. It seems as though those bands think that merely having lyrics is enough for that song to be "about" something even if the musical actions that take place don't actually hint at anything expressed in the lyrics.
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So who is to say that crappy Metalcore band are infact trying to do exactly what you say they aren't but the either a) suck at it
Then I'd say that's fairly strong basis for one to dislike that music.
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
b) they're emotional response to sounds just isn't the same as yours.
Well, that's more related to asserting whether or not something is "good", which is entirely subjective, but what I'm talking about is forming opinions based on objective traits displayed by the music, essentially. Otherwise, you could have a I-IV-V progression in C major be interpreted as "sad" or "evil" when in reality, it's happy. Melodies are defined by the intervallic distances between tones, because the interval between two notes will reproduce the sound of itself no matter where it is, to the point where individual pitches are fairly mundane, and thusly, a melody has to create some base emotional impression as it exists, otherwise resetting that same melody within different intervals (which is what I mean when I say, "reset into different note choice") wouldn't make it sound any different... yet, it does.

To help contextualize this... I'm fairly confident that you like The Acacia Strain (if I'm wrong in this presumption I apologize), and try to base that opinion of them within some reason, one possibly being that it's heavy. But if they played the same songs on 6 string guitars in E standard through Fender amplifiers, would that music still create that impression of "heaviness" to you? I doubt it.
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
Personally I'd find that no, it didn't. You've described one band in terms of another with some extra stuff added albeit that well executed in your opinion. It's different sure but it's not new, if I were to listen to it would I think it's something like I've never heard, or even someone with more of a Death Metal back ground? I mean there was a time before metal was, before death metal was, before black metal, before doom metal. SO why can't we have something new when it's obviously happened in the past? Why can we only create metal that is already defined in the lexicon of metal?
Again, because art/music collectively is meant to summarize the human condition, not one individual genre of art/music. It almost seems like you don't really enjoy Metal as it is and instead want it to be something else.
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Granted, that doesn't mean I don't go, "I want this song to have a Thrash feel" when I start off writing. But, by the end of the song, it probably has a feel that's definitely not in the lexicon of Metal. Just a personal example...
Hell, that's how we got all these different subgenres of Metal. Someone went and created something Metal, without worrying whether it fit the already defined subgenres.
This is a pretty interesting point. My response would be that the innovators of metal subgenres could only do so because metal, simply, was not as defined back in the 80s/90s (primarily 80s). The last major surfacing of a new style would be Black Metal, which, in its 2nd wave idiom, was born... wait for it... about 25 years ago.

As a result of this, the time has come to stop writing by ear and "shooting in the dark", so to speak, because ALL the aesthetic innovations in metal have already occurred... however, the transition from Metal music to being, more or less, violent, modern Classical has only been hinted at, something which I aim to propagate myself, one day.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:16 PM   #49
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I do. Perhaps not as much as you, but I do enjoy metal as is and have been listening to a lot more of it in recent weeks that I have for a while.

This argument/debate/e-peen contest is in relation to the future of heavy metal. Maybe I should of made that clear to start with because I see that I in fact didn't. My view is that metal will not change, metal in the future will be like it is now due to it's inflexibility when it comes to creating anything "new" as opposed to something that is new and well executed but still sounds like something old.

I would continue to have this debate, but I don't think I shall. Mainly because I know there is no way at all I can change your mind, not that I was really trying to and due to the fact that, in reality the debate serves no purpose. Maybe I'm wrong? who cares? I don't... but I'll continue to believe that metal can be expanded on but there are forces within it's fanbase that prevent it. You have made some good points and I have learned something here and there, but I still disagree with you on some of the major points
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:02 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
This argument/debate/e-peen contest is in relation to the future of heavy metal. Maybe I should of made that clear to start with because I see that I in fact didn't. My view is that metal will not change, metal in the future will be like it is now due to it's inflexibility when it comes to creating anything "new" as opposed to something that is new and well executed but still sounds like something old.

I actually would say that it will change. Look at trends like Djent. Or the resurgence of progressive metal (not "progressive metal", as in "sounds like Dream Theather", but rather meaning that a lot of bands are placing a great deal of emphasis on good composition and technicality). Hell, even genres like Thrash have changed since the '80s.

Maybe right now, the change is subtle. But it is there. And it is apparent.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:06 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I actually would say that it will change. Look at trends like Djent. Or the resurgence of progressive metal (not "progressive metal", as in "sounds like Dream Theather", but rather meaning that a lot of bands are placing a great deal of emphasis on good composition and technicality). Hell, even genres like Thrash have changed since the '80s.

Maybe right now, the change is subtle. But it is there. And it is apparent.


He's talking about the underground peeps. They more than likely aren't going to accept this so from their perception Metal won't "progress" in that direction. That's not to say there won't be good bands or breakthrough albums, just that that direction won't be considered legitimate.

Also, do you like Thrash? Do you like "Progressive" stuff? WELL HEAR THIS!

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Old 01-22-2013, 07:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
He's talking about the underground peeps. They more than likely aren't going to accept this so from their perception Metal won't "progress" in that direction. That's not to say there won't be good bands or breakthrough albums, just that that direction won't be considered legitimate.


Indeed this.

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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I actually would say that it will change. Look at trends like Djent. Or the resurgence of progressive metal (not "progressive metal", as in "sounds like Dream Theather", but rather meaning that a lot of bands are placing a great deal of emphasis on good composition and technicality).


I would argue that most of the modern "prog" metal bands don't focus on composition at all which is why most of them suck.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:30 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
I would argue that most of the modern "prog" metal bands don't focus on composition at all which is why most of them suck.
So you agree with me about djent music? Now this is an interesting turn!

In all seriousness, though, we're probably never going to see eye to eye, so it sounds like it's time for me to smoke a blunt.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:53 PM   #54
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:56 PM   #55
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However, by in large, fans of extreme metal are usually more intelligent

I must say that your sense of humour is above funny. I never knew smashing power chords, messing in a broken chord and shouting down a mic was intellectual.


They how can you have a conversation about it if you don't know what you're talking about?

I do



Here is a list of over 3000 metal bands from the UK:

http://www.metal-archives.com/lists/GB


Yeah, like anybody has ever heard of them.




And here is a list of over 2000 bands from Canada:

http://www.metal-archives.com/lists/CA

Canada has been very influential in the war metal scene and had/has produced some classic death metal albums.


War metal? That sounds stupid. Also, canada has been very influential with innovators such as justin bieber.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:59 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax

We had some decent discussion until Supersonic-95 showed up. (Just so you know his idiocy, he made a thread asking "Why do people like Metal?" where he basically told us wonderful things of a spamming nature.)



That's it Sam, you've gone too far. From now on I'm going to address you as "Soft Petal".
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:59 PM   #57
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technicolour


However, by in large, fans of extreme metal are usually more intelligent

I must say that your sense of humour is above funny. I never knew smashing power chords, messing in a broken chord and shouting down a mic was intellectual.


They how can you have a conversation about it if you don't know what you're talking about?

I do



Here is a list of over 3000 metal bands from the UK:

http://www.metal-archives.com/lists/GB


Yeah, like anybody has ever heard of them.




And here is a list of over 2000 bands from Canada:

http://www.metal-archives.com/lists/CA

Canada has been very influential in the war metal scene and had/has produced some classic death metal albums.


War metal? That sounds stupid. Also, canada has been very influential with innovators such as justin bieber.


Just go away... you've already admitted you know nothing about metal even if you haven't said it directly and don't like it. Why do you do this?
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:01 PM   #58
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Just go away... you've already admitted you know nothing about metal even if you haven't said it directly and don't like it. Why do you do this?


I was trying to help you people, but you kicked me in the teeth!
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:05 PM   #59
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I was trying to help you people, but you kicked me in the teeth!


No you weren't you were shovelling your biased opinion with out so much as an explanation behind it that reaches beyond "I don't like it". You've already admitted you don't like the genre yet you hang around seemingly with the soul purpose of insulting it. You're lucky you don't get banned for trolling.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:06 PM   #60
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Hey, how did that last thread end, anyway?

ITT: Ignore the troll and post your favorite metal songs about the (good or bad) future

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