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Old 01-25-2013, 02:00 PM   #21
Sleepy__Head
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
You can do a whole lot more by getting out of box shapes though.


I would agree with this, I suppose. But if you continue using them after that "getting started" point, you're not doing it right. Stagnation in musical learning is never good, as there's always more to learn.


Well like I said, I think it all depends on what you want to do. From what I see on MT the majority of regular contributors are into self improvement, but I can understand that not everyone is that bothered about getting any further than being able to play a basic solo or chords.

I think if you're into trying to be the best then it's probably better to start somewhere else than learning stock patterns (getting a decent teacher would be the best thing you could do, IMO), but if you happen to start by learning box patterns it's not the end of the world and shouldn't hold you back if you decide you want to get better.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:05 PM   #22
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A mode is in whatever key it's intended tonic is.

Those charts are generic finger patterns for the 7 basic modes regardless of key, all starting on the same root. You can play those patterns anywhere.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:11 PM   #23
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Aargh!

A modal scale is in whatever key you're in.
A mode can't be in a key because keys and modes are exclusive musical concepts. If you're in me you're not in the other, and vice versa.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:39 PM   #24
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I don't think anybody is talking about chanting music. The idea of modes as completely separate from scales and keys is anachronistic.

Modes as they relate to guitars and modern music are about interval relationships relative to the tonic. I wouldn't call E mixolydian a key in itself, but you can certainly say that you're playing the mixolydian mode in the key of E.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:39 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Well like I said, I think it all depends on what you want to do. From what I see on MT the majority of regular contributors are into self improvement, but I can understand that not everyone is that bothered about getting any further than being able to play a basic solo or chords.

I think if you're into trying to be the best then it's probably better to start somewhere else than learning stock patterns (getting a decent teacher would be the best thing you could do, IMO), but if you happen to start by learning box patterns it's not the end of the world and shouldn't hold you back if you decide you want to get better.

This is definitely true. But, as you said, getting a good teacher would be best. I personally always had a problem finding a good teacher. I had 1 good one, out of the 5 I had. Imho, a teacher should teach you the basics and then give you the skills to learn what you want to learn on your own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
I don't think anybody is talking about chanting music. The idea of modes as completely separate from scales and keys is anachronistic.

Modes as they relate to guitars and modern music are about interval relationships relative to the tonic. I wouldn't call E mixolydian a key in itself, but you can certainly say that you're playing the mixolydian mode in the key of E.

Or you could just say that you're playing the mixolydian mode with E as the tonic, which is technically a more correct way to state it.
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Last edited by crazysam23_Atax : 01-25-2013 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:09 PM   #26
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or you can just say you're playing a fucking scale and worry about more important things in the song cause if it's simple enough for you to break down to 7 notes odds are it's either got an interesting ass rhythm or it's absolutely terrible
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:57 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Modes are not scales. Keys are not scales.
Neither scales, nor modes, nor keys have root notes.


Again, this seems to be intentionally confusing.

Yes, a "root note" refers to a note in a chord, and "tonic" technically refers to the note that is gravitated towards in tonal harmony...but how does any of that help TS? Seriously?

I gave both "root note" and "tonic" because they get called by both names and I was trying to be as easy to understand as possible.

I think sometimes people forget that people come here and ask questions to learn things, rather than to see a bunch of musicians argue over semantics
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:21 PM   #28
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Are we talking about writing an analysis of classical music or actually communicating in a playing situation? Use of terminology depends on who you're talking to.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainsawguitar
Again, this seems to be intentionally confusing.

Yes, a "root note" refers to a note in a chord, and "tonic" technically refers to the note that is gravitated towards in tonal harmony...but how does any of that help TS? Seriously?

I gave both "root note" and "tonic" because they get called by both names and I was trying to be as easy to understand as possible.

I think sometimes people forget that people come here and ask questions to learn things, rather than to see a bunch of musicians argue over semantics


it's an incredibly important distinction because it helps the beginner separate "the first note" from the most consonant. if people knew the difference between roots and tonics, i think this whole modes mess would be a lot easier to break down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
Are we talking about writing an analysis of classical music or actually communicating in a playing situation? Use of terminology depends on who you're talking to.


i've opted to be a solo artist because of people like you who think you're above the law

music theory beat cop on tha case
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:40 PM   #30
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Intentionally: No. Confusing - I dunno, it made sense to me

I believe the problem is that the OP has asked a different question to the one they want answered.

Probably what the OP wants to know is: "If my friend is playing a C chord, or a progression in the key of C, which one of these scales do I need to play?"

To which the answer is:

The Ionian starting on C;
The Dorian starting on D;
The Phrygian starting on E;
The Lydian starting on F;
The Mixolydian starting on G;
The Aeolian starting on A;
The Locrian starting on B.

The answer to the actual question ("are they based on major or minor scales? what key are they in?" is actually something like ...

Let's take the scale of C major as a reference point:

CDEFGABC

The Ionian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 1st note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be CDEFGABC.
The Dorian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 2nd note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be DEFGABCD.
The Phrygian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 3rd note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be EFGABCDE.
The Lydian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 4th note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be FGABCDEF.
The Mixolydian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 5th note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be GABCDEFG.
The Aeolian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 6th note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be ABCDEFGA.
The Locrian scale is equivalent to playing a major scale starting from the 7th note of that scale. In our reference scale that would be BCDEFGAG.

In Western music there is one major scale.
The major scale is the same as the Ionian scale (e.g. CDEFGABC).

In Western music there are also three minor scales: Natural minor, Harmonic minor, and Melodic minor.
The natural minor scale is the same as the Aeolian mode (e.g. ABCDEFGA).
The harmonic minor has a sharp 7th note (e.g. ABCDEFG#A).
The melodic minor consists of an ascending scale and a descending scale.
The ascending melodic minor scale has a sharp 6th and 7th note: (e.g. ABCDEF#G#A).
The descending melodic minor scale is the same as the natural minor, so it's the same as the Aeolian mode (e.g. AGFEDCBA).
So the entire melodic minor scale has a sharp 6th and 7th on the way up, and they are flattened on the way down (e.g. ABCDEF#G#A (up) AGFEDCBA (down))

So what key are they in?

Well that depends on a few things. If you just play a major scale on its own with no accompaniment (no chords) then it's in the key of the starting note.
So our reference scale is in C, so all these are 'in C'.

However ...

If you record a progression of F Am C F and play a C scale over that it's now in the key of F Major because the C > F chord change is in the key of F Major.
And if you record a progression of F# A#m C# F# and play a C scale over that you could say that the chords are in F# Major and the scale is in C Major, or (depending on how the music sounds) that there isn't any real sense of key at all and that therefore none of it is in a key at all.

So a scale isn't necessarily in any key.
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
Are we talking about writing an analysis of classical music or actually communicating in a playing situation? Use of terminology depends on who you're talking to.


Both because analyses of classical music and communicating are not necessarily exclusive.

Look, why don't we try throwing this back to the OP.

OP: We see that you don't understand the diagrams and we're all in agreement that the diagrams are a bunch of horseshit. What we don't know is what you're trying to achieve with the diagrams. Did you want to know about exercises for getting better, are you trying to learn about scales and how that relates to playing solos, or are you just a beginner trying to get some basic advice about how to play that guitar you just got bought for your birthday? Give us something a bit more specific and we might be able to help you a bit better.
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:07 PM   #32
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yeah, bite size theory stuff tends not to make much sense. Modes are something you should learn, but they aren't something you go out and play. It's just good to have patterns under your fingers so you know exactly where you are at all times.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:45 PM   #33
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Modes aren't in keys, my friend. Modes are modes, keys are keys.

Also, that diagram is useless. :/
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:34 AM   #34
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I feel like OP went on vacation here. I mean, unless he has some specific questions or something...

We certainly can't help him like this. Although, I do hope he at least gets modes are NOT in keys now.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:47 AM   #35
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Ok. I did a guitar lesson on skype with Josh Middleton from Sylosis last saturday. I asked him for some excerises that would build technique and i wanted to learn a bit of theory so i could understand how he plays the way he does so fluently. He pulled up these diagrams and sent them to me and told me to practice them. As far as theory i'm not expert. I just wanted to see if i could get some kind of help from peeps on this forum. Thank you for those who did explain. It seemed to me though that it turned into an arguement as oppsed to actually helping me out. I just don't know where to start. I guess learning the C major scale would be a good idea?
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:50 AM   #36
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I've been playing for 5 years. I just went the route of looking tabs up on this website. That's how i learned most of what I know. I just am at a point where, I'm ready to start learning more about my guitar. I spend hours and hours a day playing and i enjoy it.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:59 AM   #37
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Sadly you've just had first hand experience of the old saying that good players don't always make good teachers. Honestly, what he's sent you there is useless both from a theory point of view and also a technique point of view.

It's probably best to start at the beginning, so how much theory do you actually understand at the moment - do you know the notes on your fretboard?
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:47 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SReed87
Ok. I did a guitar lesson on skype with Josh Middleton from Sylosis last saturday. I asked him for some excerises that would build technique and i wanted to learn a bit of theory so i could understand how he plays the way he does so fluently. He pulled up these diagrams and sent them to me and told me to practice them. As far as theory i'm not expert. I just wanted to see if i could get some kind of help from peeps on this forum. Thank you for those who did explain. It seemed to me though that it turned into an arguement as oppsed to actually helping me out. I just don't know where to start. I guess learning the C major scale would be a good idea?


What Steven said.

Also ...

What do you want to get out of guitar playing? Do you want to see an overall improvement, or are you looking for something specific? Are you looking to play mainly improvised solos, or are you more of a rhythm guy? Can you give us a bit more info about your aims?
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:38 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven seagull
...good players don't always make good teachers.


This. 1000%

Some of the best players I've come across also happen to be the worst teachers in the world!
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:38 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SReed87
Ok. I did a guitar lesson on skype with Josh Middleton from Sylosis last saturday. I asked him for some excerises that would build technique and i wanted to learn a bit of theory so i could understand how he plays the way he does so fluently. He pulled up these diagrams and sent them to me and told me to practice them. As far as theory i'm not expert. I just wanted to see if i could get some kind of help from peeps on this forum. Thank you for those who did explain. It seemed to me though that it turned into an arguement as oppsed to actually helping me out. I just don't know where to start. I guess learning the C major scale would be a good idea?

Well **** me, you came back, then?! So, this time, what's the interval between B and D?
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