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Old 02-02-2013, 01:18 AM   #241
JackWhiteIsButts
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Superman is probably sterile from all that exposure to kryptonite anyway.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:21 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by palm mute
Of course. But the most amazing comic book is still miles away from an average film, or a shitty but slightly enjoyable book.

This is what this thread really needs to be about, where comic books fall on the media value scale.


I don't see why comics would inherently be a lower art form. The reason for it being widely considered as such is in my opinion because it's been stereotyped as something for kids and young teens.
If you would read something more mature and ambitious like for example Love & Rockets im sure you would see how much potential the comic book medium has.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:24 AM   #243
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I feel like I'm being hated on here ): I like V for Vendetta, the Watchmen, Sandman, and a lot of Batman works. Both the comics and movies.

The comics have their merits in deeper and fuller stories and the movies have their great actors and you know... movement lol
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:28 AM   #244
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yes it is sexist.
will I do anything about it?

Nope!
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:28 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by cornmancer
If you start thinking about human beings in such black and white terms as "our only point is to eat and reproduce" you
A) miss a lot of beautiful things in life.
B) unintentionally say very mean things about people who don't want children, can't have children, or are not inclined to have sex with the sort of person with whom they can make children.

A) I'm not missing any of those things, I didn't refer to those things as the only point of existing, I referred to them as the foundation of our existence (and importantly CONTINUED existence). Obviously many other pursuits are to be enjoyed along the way.
B) You're right, that's not my intention, or my concern quite frankly. I'm not trying to say that everybody out there should be having children, its a privilege. It's unfortunate for people who want children but can't have them, but ultimately darwinism wins, as it should.

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Originally Posted by cornmancer
And yes it is saying that. I don't care if the thing is actually about Superman beating the crap out of the bad guy, when Superwoman and Supergirl and Batwoman and Batgirl and every female in the universe has big tits and a nice ass, it's saying that's how women are supposed to be. It doesn't matter if that's not what the story is about. Subtext my friend.

subtext in COMIC BOOKS. Not exactly a barometer of society... in the grand scheme of things the depiction of female characters in a comic book could hardly matter less. People just love an argument.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:32 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Diamond Dave
subtext in COMIC BOOKS. Not exactly a barometer of society... in the grand scheme of things the depiction of female characters in a comic book could hardly matter less. People just love an argument.

Ignoring your dumb dismissal of comic books, the fact is that comic books are the places where it's easiest to see problems because it's so exaggerated. It's a symptom of a bigger problem. This is what Eastwinn was saying pages ago.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:34 AM   #247
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Superman is probably sterile from all that exposure to kryptonite anyway.


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Old 02-02-2013, 01:42 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by rockingamer2
Ignoring your dumb dismissal of comic books, the fact is that comic books are the places where it's easiest to see problems because it's so exaggerated. It's a symptom of a bigger problem. This is what Eastwinn was saying pages ago.

forgive me for not reading all 7 pages of a boring argument...

and what is the bigger problem exactly? People are drawing way too many conclusions (ahem, assumptions I should say) about the motivations for drawing women in comic books with "big curves".
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:45 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by cornmancer
Adopt a child who's old enough not to be barfing all over the place. Granted if they ever get a stomach flu or some shit, head for the hills, BUT UNTIL THEN!


that's probably a good solution to the problem. if they start yakking i will get its mother to handle it while i drive to pennsylvania and have a panic attack in a motel.

alright yeah i quit on kids.

sockingamer2: oh someone actually read that post!
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:45 AM   #250
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check out the 'shit list' thread for some good old fashioned sexism.


that is all.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:50 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Diamond Dave
forgive me for not reading all 7 pages of a boring argument...

and what is the bigger problem exactly? People are drawing way too many conclusions (ahem, assumptions I should say) about the motivations for drawing women in comic books with "big curves".

Sexism
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:56 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Diamond Dave
forgive me for not reading all 7 pages of a boring argument...

if it's so boring why are you engaging in it
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:02 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by whywefight
check out the 'shit list' thread for some good old fashioned sexism.

that is all.


Yet again, no. Sex =/= sexism.
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:18 AM   #254
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I personally think the term "graphic novel" is stupid, and is basically a result of an inferiority complex among certain comics creators.

Although these days you hear more of them openly bashing the term for those very reasons.

I just call 'em comics, since that's what they are.

And yeah, there are a lot of shitty comics, but the same can be said of any other medium. Yes, mainstream comics are massively overpopulated with superhero titles, but even those can be good sometimes.

But like, are you actually going to say that Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Grant Morrison and Warren Ellis suck?

Alan Moore does kind of suck. His books are predictable in that you know he always throw a rape in there. I've never liked his work. However he is relevant to this. He gets a lot of static as a sexist for his women characters often being abused in some way. But stupid people don't realize that V was abused, too. Swamp Thing was raped. Same thing in LOEG. So, people are being overly sensitive to the female characters and not realizing that males get treated the same way. Most male comic book characters get sexualized, too.


However you can't say they ARE comic books. That term comes from when they were still the funny papers. A comic book that isn't comedic isn't technically a comic book. Johnny the Homicidal Maniac is a comic book. The Tick is a comic book. Swamp Thing is not.

That said, I hate the term graphic novel too. But I suspect it's the non obsessive fans who started calling them that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cornmancer
If you start thinking about human beings in such black and white terms as "our only point is to eat and reproduce" you
A) miss a lot of beautiful things in life.
B) unintentionally say very mean things about people who don't want children, can't have children, or are not inclined to have sex with the sort of person with whom they can make children.

And yes it is saying that. I don't care if the thing is actually about Superman beating the crap out of the bad guy, when Superwoman and Supergirl and Batwoman and Batgirl and every female in the universe has big tits and a nice ass, it's saying that's how women are supposed to be. It doesn't matter if that's not what the story is about. Subtext my friend.

Adopt a child who's old enough not to be barfing all over the place. Granted if they ever get a stomach flu or some shit, head for the hills, BUT UNTIL THEN!

Dan, that's a load of horse shit. Find me one comic book writer who feels like they need to look like their creations. Jeph Loeb doesn't look like Bruce Wayne. And where do you draw the line, exactly? Garth Ennis thinks all women should be efficient with firearms? A super hero is the exception to the norm and most writers and artists acknowledge this. Chances are they are drawn the way they are simply because te artist likes drawing that way. I'm retreading IT right now and one of my favorite scenes is in that book. A writer in college gets his work dogged on because his professor doesn't see any grand message in his work. To which, the writer wants to know why a story can't just be a story. Same thing applies here. Or like how people sit there and try to dissect Alien as a movie about AID when really, someone just thought it was a cool story. Maybe the artists just like drawing that way.

And I love how you guys think it's wrong to sexualized women and claim it turns girl readers off. Who exactly do you guys think made 50 Shades of Gray a best seller?


But frankly, any woman who looks at those comics and gets turned off the industry is a moron. I don't see Clark Kent and realize I'll never look like that and take it out on myself. And if I DID have a problem with it, I'd do one of two things:

Read a different comic book.
Write my own comic book that has nothing to do with that.

It's the reason serious comic books exist and why non-superhero comics exist. Someone thought funny comic books about super heroes are stupid and did something else. People are free to do that instead of bitching about something so trivial and inaccurate. Especially since those people probably don't really care about comics in the first place and just like talking out of their ass. Like, the majority of this thread, for example.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:21 AM   #255
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I'd like to know something.

How many of you who are arguing about the sexist portrayal of women in comic books actually READ comic books? Do you actually have an understanding of the medium you're talking about, or are you taking a bunch of shitty single drawings by the likes of Rob Liefeld to base your arguments on? Do you even know any of the characters you're posting? Or are you crying sexism just because a comic book artist decided to draw his women with bulbous boobs and asses, just like he decided to draw his heroes with bulging muscles, and claiming that they thus have no function other than to be sexy?

Let's take Silk Spectre from the Watchmen, for instance.



Short skirt, see through-ish top, high heels. Not exactly fighting clothing, but then, Rohrschach runs around fighting in plateau shoes and a raincoat. The only characters to have armor in the Watchmen are Night Owl and Ozymandias. John runs around naked 99% of the time.

Now, to those of you who actually have read the Watchmen, at what point did you start caring at all about what these people were wearing, and stop caring about who they were and what they were doing? At what point did you stop caring about Silk Spectre as a character, and see her only as a walking pair of tits? At what point did you stop and think "Wow, I really want to be Mr. Manhatten, all muscley and naked."

You didn't, because what they were wearing or what they looked like was never as important as what they did or what kind of characters they were. Do you see where I'm going with this? Silk Spectre was sexy, wore unfunctional clothing, and was clearly drawn to appeal to a male demographic. But how in the world can that be sexist when what she looks like says nothing at all about what character she is?
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:25 AM   #256
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I was slightly disappointed I left last night and came back to find 4 more pages of replies to sift through, making me unable to reply to my earlier replies, but having read the rest of the thread I'm sort of glad I'm not involved any more...

I'm out, guys. Enjoy yourselves.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:36 AM   #257
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Another example, Thorn from Bone. The first time we see her, she's taking off her pants, getting ready to take a bath in a hot spring. Fone Bone sees this, his head ignites on fire, he falls into the water and things go from there.



Then this happens.



If you had only seen the way she was introduced, taking off her pants and all, I'm sure you would have extrapolated the rest of the story seeing her as nothing but a sex object and love interest and deemed the entire book as sexist. Which, of course, is bullshit, because she is more of a central character than the protagonist.

You cannot, I repeat, you cannot judge a character's importance to the story based on a single panel, and to claim that all scantly clad women in comic books are "only there to be T&A" is just wrong.


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Old 02-02-2013, 07:39 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by rockingamer2
Sexism

I give up

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Originally Posted by due 07
if it's so boring why are you engaging in it

because I had too much faith in common sense
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:12 AM   #259
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@Coreymonster: A lot of the pictures posted in the blog were covers or promo pics iirc in which its main purpose is to attract. Pointing out SS and Thorn, which aren't sexualised to the same extent anyway, doesn't exactly negate this. On the other hand, I really don't have much qualms with this sorta stuff. Personally, I already find superheroes kinda ridiculous so characteristics such as being hypersexualised and extremely muscular is sorta already implicit to the style

i also think that female superheroes does more against sexism than its given credit for but the idea is still kinda weak and would probably sound silly
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:42 AM   #260
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